[HoodieDM]

To be fair, we're still waiting for that rotating skill/symbol checks for Quantum Incursions.

I mean it's been...2.5 years...

~D

[PantsOfTheTalShiar]

James: Why are your HBI builds so dependent on the Defiant? Is it because it's easier to report there than DS9?

My only forrays outside of TNG decks in 1e have been DS9-Cardassian and Joint Operation decks, so I have some thoughts here.
-I Miss This Office is vastly inferior to Joint Operation, even in a pure Cardassian deck. (A) JO reports can go straight to Central Command, (B) the personnel quality is a bit higher, and (C) you know in the deckbuilding-phase whether or not the engine will work as advertised.
-The biggest issues I ran into were difficulties in setting up a flexible two mission win (few point gain options), and Cardassian missions are awkward in general. The 35 point ones have huge span numbers, so you're only limping across the spaceline, and tend to have decent size attribute requirements because of the eras in which they were made.
-It just adds up to: you can play a lot of people, and you can do it just about as easily as other decks can, but getting them to do stuff is just harder.

This matches my experiences with Cardassians. I've found work-arounds for the high span by mostly sticking to the Cardassia region and using Plasmadyne Relay with people who can download it (Morn, Mila, etc.). But bonus points are hard to come by.

It's interesting that all the recent decks using I Miss This Office pair it with Bajoran Resistance Cell and Chamber of Ministers. (Including Ken's Regional deck that for some reason doesn't show up on the list.) My (untested) plan to pair it with Central Command would be to use Orb Negotiations, Kressari Rendezvous, and no Bajor Region missions. Then I'd use Bajoran Wormhole: Mirror Universe or Ultimatum to download Bajoran Wormhole and insert it next to Cardassia Region (assuming there's no Bajor Region on the spaceline already). But vs. Terok Nor decks you probably lose that spaceline manipulation, and vs. DS9 decks you still lose your Nor.

Oh, also, on my 1E DS9 wishlist is some sort of nor-based NA smuggler/thief/freighter captain play engine. There are all those cool NA cards from the original DS9 set that are kinda homeless now, and I'd love to play some sort of den of thieves deck using them.

[HoodieDM]

I'm still in the vote that I Miss This Office is so much inferior to Joint Operation b/c once you lose DS9 during setup, half your play/draw engine limitations are gone. I still think it shouldn't have been a freaking outpost, but Nor should have been the downloading option. At least then you could have still played the set up like yours.

~D

[BCSWowbagger]

James: Why are your HBI builds so dependent on the Defiant? Is it because it's easier to report there than DS9?

That's one reason. Another is that the station is just really vulnerable to commandeering in the midgame, and HBI doesn't really have a lot of resources to defend it, so reporting to the Defiant is the thing that assures me my deck is going to work for the entire game.

The other other reason is because my HBI builds operate in the GQ, so, if I report anyone to the station, I have to go back and get them -- which means discarding two cards from hand to transit the wormhole twice. Ideally, once I leave DS9, I never return.

I dunno, maybe I'm whining. But that's how I play HBI, generally.

[HoodieDM]

But that's how I play HBI, generally.

I like having my Defiant do a GQ mission myself. You can net some bonus points as well and do 1 AQ mission to score 100 points hopefully.

~D

[PantsOfTheTalShiar]

Come to think of it, I once had another DS9 deck that was Terran Rebellion HQ + TCTTM + BRC. It was something like this deck fragment. New Frontiers worked great when I could just report alpha personnel to the mirror quadrant, expecially with Crossover downloading Benjamin Sisko (Chain of Command) who downloaded Jake and Nog on opponent's turn.

This was all before the expansion Crossover was released, so the deck got hit hard with the Multidimensional Transport Device errata, which really soured me on the idea of "proactive" errata. The BRC errata that came later also didn't help this deck.

[DarkSabre]

I've been trying to articulate why I have issues with building a DS9 deck but been having difficulty as to why.

Exceptional players will always find a way to play any group and play them well.

I don't find Nors, wormhole traveling, etc to be an issue.

The issue is drawing and speed. the DS9 cards I feel force decks to be a certain specific way and you can't be creative if you want to use cards that enhance DS9 cards only.

The lack of certain cards against QI is an issue.

The issue that Dominion are pretty toothless against 22nd century is an issue due to the limitations of battling,

Reward from the Founders is a card I really dislike. It severely limits a Dominion battle deck. But putting that aside I just find the card to be very limiting. Like here is your box and stay. I never really used much Founders or Vorta except those I could download through some cards - Dominion's strong suit was always getting Jem'Hadar out quick and fast and it's been gutted by Dominion cards, errata, and other affiliation cards.

If I have to face Romulan Minefields, Vulcans changing the mission requirements of my missions, and other locking down of missions I should be able to make them face the battle hardened warriors of the Dominion.

The lack of Temporal Benefactor Lore cards also.

Sorry this isn't so coherent. I am having a hard time writing it out clearly but wanted to add some words to this discussion already. DS9 is my favorite series & my favorite Decipher era releases.

[MidnightLich]

To be fair, we're still waiting for that rotating skill/symbol checks for Quantum Incursions.

I mean it's been...2.5 years...

~D

I have tried three times to change this card, but testing has always revealed a problem or a push against change. That's not a knock against the testers, who do incredible work, by the way. If anything, we should have put more energy into generating requirements up front so we could rotate between them.

-crp

[HoodieDM]

To be fair, we're still waiting for that rotating skill/symbol checks for Quantum Incursions.

I mean it's been...2.5 years...

~D

I have tried three times to change this card, but testing has always revealed a problem or a push against change. That's not a knock against the testers, who do incredible work, by the way. If anything, we should have put more energy into generating requirements up front so we could rotate between them.

-crp

Appreciate that Charlie. Not sure why people would be against change. Not sure what the problem is either. I mean, if they want to put in a requirement of , why can't or be there instead? If the skill of Empathy was in there, why not Any Intelligence? I don't see why a couple of hard skills or symbols and then a lot of easy stuff is so difficult? Heck, put in or and make folks reveal their hand or something? Maybe discard 2-3 cards for every skill/symbol you lack?

I don't know, it's a great card, love it. Just think it's due for something different.

Anyways, thanks for the response and hopefully you guys can come up with something!

~D

[PantsOfTheTalShiar]

has so much draw already across the board, I don't think adding more would help them. (New Frontiers, Cross-Quadrant Expansion, Morn, Celestial Temple, Process Ore, Study Divergent History at Bajor or Cardassia, Guest Quarters, Promenade Shops, A Better Alternative -- although this last suffers from being hard to get on the table without ruining your deck ratio -- Mutual Distrust, Renewal Scroll, New Arrivals -- which is huge for Cardassians running Dominion War Efforts -- Reward from the Founders, Bajoran Resistance Cell... and that's just the decent ones! There are also usually-bad options like Bajor for Bajorans, Determined to Stay, Cargo Bay, Forced-Labor Camp, and Articles of Jurisprudence. And this doesn't touch on the more generic engines like Duck Blind and Kivas and War Council and Fajo's Gallery.)

Obviously does have something wrong with them, or they'd be played more, but I don't think draw is it. They've got more draw than anybody.

Getting back to this, I think the issue is the quality of draw engines rather than the quantity. (And let's be honest, Promenade Shops is only a draw engine for you and Mogor. ) The biggest difference between DS9 and TNG/ENT is that TNG has Continuing Mission and ENT has Finally Ready to Swim: seedable draw engines that give you a draw just for playing your personnel. I don't know if DS9 should get that, because it's kind of nice that not every thing is the same, and and I kind of feel that draws should be something that require an investment instead of rewarding you for something that you were going to do anyway. Maybe we're past that point, though.

DS9 also has hidden draw costs. Let's start with a theoretical basic HBI deck. I've got a docking site and 5 other sites, which lets me play 5 classifications. That's great, I'll let the VIP and CIVILIAN play to Chamber of Ministers, and play the more important classes to the sites. But now I need draws. Let's see if Morn will do the trick. I'll need Quark's Bar for the draws and Cargo Bay to download Morn. Then, since I lost two classification sites, I'll need We Need You Here on Commander's Office, which makes me lose a third classification site. The end result is that Morn gives me an extra end of turn draw, but also costs me three draws that need to be converted to site downloads to play all my personnel. Then it will cost even more draws if I want to visit the GQ.

Another challenge I'm finding now that I'm revisiting DS9 is that most play engines have a much narrower personnel pool; there's a lot of skill overlap. Chamber of Ministers has SO much Diplomacy and Leadership. Joint Operation has SO much SECURITY and Treachery. Dominion is the king of lopsided skill matrices. Compare to TNG where most engines have pretty diverse skill sets and compare to ENT where your two engines are "Uniques of this affiliation" and "Everybody of this affiliation." It's not impossible to overcome, but it adds an extra challenge, and again I'm not sure if it can or should be fixed.

Yet another (minor) difference is that Scientific Diplomacy seamlessly works with most main TNG engines but Nano-Biogenic Disarmament doesn't really work with anything.

Metamorphosis had a lot of DS9 content, and so far the Jack Pack are showing potential in my HBI build. They get me draws, they get me Empathy by downloading Lwaxana, and they look good vs. Botany Bay dilemmas. I'll let you know if I ever try this deck out, because currently it's competing with a few ridiculous ideas that I've been meaning to try out for a while.

[Proconsul Neral]

I'll just be blunt DS9 sucks.
Nors are clunky, unintuitive, and break the flow of the game up. They are unfun.....

Also Legate Damar has for over a year now attempted to play Cardssian, it simply can't be done. I miss this office is weak as hell (as are most DS9 cards) so your only option is joint operation and theirs just not enough bonus points, decent missions, card draw and personnel to make that work either.

Also I just want to ask why the are allowed to languish as they have. They are the only faction that has an 8 or 9 part "how to" guide on the CCs website. I can't even describe how bad Dominion suck. I've tried to play them, they suck hard.

If the CC is serious about fixing DS9 they need to overhaul Nors, fix reactor core cards, streamline play and draw engines and for gods sake buff the cardassians and dominion. My god and were the main villians of the most popular show in the entire franchise and they are a joke.

I'm in a hurry but I have a lot more to say. If the cc ever wants to unfuck DS9 just let me know......

[Mogor]

Cardassian Terok Nor can be done it just requires going very oddball to do it

--Edit--

I have not had time to really play with rebuilding my deck in light of some of the newer cards, but they have some great toys to play with.

They were made very much viable with Greater Glory of Cardassia being released. This allows for a play engine option regardless of if the other player is using DS9 or not, and also provides a significant chance of being able to do a turn 1 or 2 capture of the station

They have excellent options for draw engines, play versatility and being able to be a fairly solid option for going multiple different routes.

I do believe my take on them could be considered a villainous approach

[Mogor]

To be fair, we're still waiting for that rotating skill/symbol checks for Quantum Incursions.

I mean it's been...2.5 years...

~D

Would love to see this come out

[HoodieDM]

I'll just be blunt DS9 sucks.
Nors are clunky, unintuitive, and break the flow of the game up. They are unfun.....

Also Legate Damar has for over a year now attempted to play Cardssian, it simply can't be done. I miss this office is weak as hell (as are most DS9 cards) so your only option is joint operation and theirs just not enough bonus points, decent missions, card draw and personnel to make that work either.

Also I just want to ask why the are allowed to languish as they have. They are the only faction that has an 8 or 9 part "how to" guide on the CCs website. I can't even describe how bad Dominion suck. I've tried to play them, they suck hard.

If the CC is serious about fixing DS9 they need to overhaul Nors, fix reactor core cards, streamline play and draw engines and for gods sake buff the cardassians and dominion. My god and were the main villians of the most popular show in the entire franchise and they are a joke.

I'm in a hurry but I have a lot more to say. If the cc ever wants to unfuck DS9 just let me know......

Actually I can get it to work pretty easily.

Set up Cardassia (Alter Records) & next to it put in Kressari Rendezvous. Seed a Nor there. Put in Comm's Office, Ops, Ore Processor, Guest Quarters, Cargo Bay, & Docking Ports.

You'll need TMW, Quarks Rods, & Crossover. Turn one download with Ops Ekoor[/card1] if you got a ship, if not, download a ship to Docking Ports. The [card1]Naprem[/card1] is great for that. During actions, flip Quarks Rods to get [card1]Miles O'Brien (Emissary)[/card1].

Turn 2, play Miles with TMW to your ship as your normal card play. DH for [card1]Overseer Odo[/card1] . Move your Nor to Cardassia with Miles of [card1]Reaction Control Thrusters[/card1]. Odo can download [card1]Process Ore[/card1]. Now you got a draw engine at Cardassia. With Ekoor you get an additional play engine of all the ❖ Security personnel with Honor.

Turn 3 and Turn 4 play/DL [card1]Security Chief Garak[/card1] & [card1]Fontaine[/card1]. This will get you 3 weapons with their downloads & 1 with [card1]Art of Diplomacy[/card1] from Garak for a total of 4 weapons to use once you get Krez cleared for 45 points.

And then turn 5 you can finish off Cardassia with Legate Damar to Guest Quarters to get 50 points. I usually [card1]Sarjenka[/card1] myself at end for the 5 additional points and to make sure I'm cleared to do [card1]For Cardassia![/card1] when it's cleared and a 2 mission win.

This of course is using RStQ and [card1]Joint Operation[/card1] at Cardassian HQ.

~D

[Proconsul Neral]

I'll just be blunt DS9 sucks.
Nors are clunky, unintuitive, and break the flow of the game up. They are unfun.....

Also Legate Damar has for over a year now attempted to play Cardssian, it simply can't be done. I miss this office is weak as hell (as are most DS9 cards) so your only option is joint operation and theirs just not enough bonus points, decent missions, card draw and personnel to make that work either.

Also I just want to ask why the are allowed to languish as they have. They are the only faction that has an 8 or 9 part "how to" guide on the CCs website. I can't even describe how bad Dominion suck. I've tried to play them, they suck hard.

If the CC is serious about fixing DS9 they need to overhaul Nors, fix reactor core cards, streamline play and draw engines and for gods sake buff the cardassians and dominion. My god and were the main villians of the most popular show in the entire franchise and they are a joke.

I'm in a hurry but I have a lot more to say. If the cc ever wants to unfuck DS9 just let me know......

Actually I can get it to work pretty easily.

Set up Cardassia (Alter Records) & next to it put in Kressari Rendezvous. Seed a Nor there. Put in Comm's Office, Ops, Ore Processor, Guest Quarters, Cargo Bay, & Docking Ports.

You'll need TMW, Quarks Rods, & Crossover. Turn one download with Ops Ekoor[/card1] if you got a ship, if not, download a ship to Docking Ports. The [card1]Naprem[/card1] is great for that. During actions, flip Quarks Rods to get [card1]Miles O'Brien (Emissary)[/card1].

Turn 2, play Miles with TMW to your ship as your normal card play. DH for [card1]Overseer Odo[/card1] . Move your Nor to Cardassia with Miles of [card1]Reaction Control Thrusters[/card1]. Odo can download [card1]Process Ore[/card1]. Now you got a draw engine at Cardassia. With Ekoor you get an additional play engine of all the ❖ Security personnel with Honor.

Turn 3 and Turn 4 play/DL [card1]Security Chief Garak[/card1] & [card1]Fontaine[/card1]. This will get you 3 weapons with their downloads & 1 with [card1]Art of Diplomacy[/card1] from Garak for a total of 4 weapons to use once you get Krez cleared for 45 points.

And then turn 5 you can finish off Cardassia with Legate Damar to Guest Quarters to get 50 points. I usually [card1]Sarjenka[/card1] myself at end for the 5 additional points and to make sure I'm cleared to do [card1]For Cardassia![/card1] when it's cleared and a 2 mission win.

This of course is using RStQ and [card1]Joint Operation[/card1] at Cardassian HQ.

~D

Now do it without your nor....