For posting 1E deck designs for feedback from other players and members of the community.
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By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
2E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2023
ibbles  Trek Masters Tribbles Champion 2023
2E Deep Space 9 Regional Champion 2023
#552644
KazonPADD wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:00 am How is BiJ horrible? To get past you must face another dilemma... seems simple enough....
I was wondering about this as well. I guess if all your missions are covered with BiJ, Edo Probes and Dead End, that might be a little disheartening.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Regent
Community Contributor
#552648
jadziadax8 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:49 am
KazonPADD wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:00 am How is BiJ horrible? To get past you must face another dilemma... seems simple enough....
I was wondering about this as well. I guess if all your missions are covered with BiJ, Edo Probes and Dead End, that might be a little disheartening.
Yeah but that takes some real doing and the player facing all of that had to make some choices along the way as well.

Sometimes you just gotta eat the 10 points and move forward.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#552675
Armus wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:06 am
jadziadax8 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:49 am
KazonPADD wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:00 am How is BiJ horrible? ...
I was wondering about this as well. ...
...Yeah...
Ah. Yes. That does deserve some clarification. It isn't horrible. It's just been horrible to me.
All -- okay, almost all -- my opponents over the past couple of months have known where to put Bij or Dead End so that I encounter either of those. At my first-attempted mission. Every. Single. Time.
And if that was just because I always have a very strategic first choice for a mission... but I don't. Half the time, I just tossed a coin internally and went for some random mission, and... got to experience Bij. Or ran into a dead end. I hate them! :x ( :P )
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#552726
SudenKapala wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:11 pm Ah. Yes. That does deserve some clarification. It isn't horrible. It's just been horrible to me.
All -- okay, almost all -- my opponents over the past couple of months have known where to put Bij or Dead End so that I encounter either of those. At my first-attempted mission. Every. Single. Time.
Top 10 dilemmas
(across 902 decks)
Cardname # Copies # Decks
Dead End 318 287
Friendly Fire 223 209
Rules of Obedience 195 161
Cytherians 221 160
Misinterpreted History 173 145
Experience Bij! 151 131
Denevan Neural Parasites 147 124
Maglock 132 121
Medical Crisis 123 103
Female's Love Interest & Garbage Scow 137 100

If they are used often, they might be powerfull and taking away from the diversity of the 447 different dilemmas we have. I´d love to see more of those and less of the top 10. Errata for the 10 and shades of grey style dilemma tuning are ways to do this.... And THEMED cards, like you may only seed *property logo*-dilemmas
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#552732
Mr.Sloan wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:12 pm
SudenKapala wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:11 pm Ah. Yes. That does deserve some clarification. It isn't horrible. It's just been horrible to me.
All -- okay, almost all -- my opponents over the past couple of months have known where to put Bij or Dead End so that I encounter either of those. At my first-attempted mission. Every. Single. Time.
Top 10 dilemmas
(across 902 decks)
Cardname # Copies # Decks
Dead End 318 287
Friendly Fire 223 209
Rules of Obedience 195 161
Cytherians 221 160
Misinterpreted History 173 145
Experience Bij! 151 131
Denevan Neural Parasites 147 124
Maglock 132 121
Medical Crisis 123 103
Female's Love Interest & Garbage Scow 137 100

If they are used often, they might be powerfull and taking away from the diversity of the 447 different dilemmas we have. I´d love to see more of those and less of the top 10. Errata for the 10 and shades of grey style dilemma tuning are ways to do this.... And THEMED cards, like you may only seed *property logo*-dilemmas
The issue isn't those top dilemmas. Its the fact that for most decks it has turned into 3 dilemmas seeded only. No more 4 or 5 card dilemma combos. Also the two dilemma seed rule has an effect as well. People are going to go with the cards that provide a better 'wall' instead of 'combos' due to it. It's an issue of OTF and not the cards themselves.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#552733
DarkSabre wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:37 pm The issue isn't those top dilemmas. Its the fact that for most decks it has turned into 3 dilemmas seeded only. No more 4 or 5 card dilemma combos. Also the two dilemma seed rule has an effect as well. People are going to go with the cards that provide a better 'wall' instead of 'combos' due to it. It's an issue of OTF and not the cards themselves.
The issue is the top 10 used dilemma being OP in comparison to the other 400.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#552746
DarkSabre wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:37 pm Also the two dilemma seed rule has an effect as well. People are going to go with the cards that provide a better 'wall' instead of 'combos' due to it. It's an issue of OTF and not the cards themselves.
Well I'm an old dinosaur who remembers the horror of the same 6 combos at every mission. If anyone thinks that dilemmas used aren't diverse enough they would be in for a rude awakening when it's Lovescow everywhere.
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By Iron Prime (Dan Van Kampen)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#552871
Hoss-Drone wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:45 pm Well I'm an old dinosaur who remembers the horror of the same 6 combos at every mission. If anyone thinks that dilemmas used aren't diverse enough they would be in for a rude awakening when it's Lovescow everywhere.
QFT
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#552917
Hoss-Drone wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:45 pm
DarkSabre wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:37 pm Also the two dilemma seed rule has an effect as well. People are going to go with the cards that provide a better 'wall' instead of 'combos' due to it. It's an issue of OTF and not the cards themselves.
Well I'm an old dinosaur who remembers the horror of the same 6 combos at every mission. If anyone thinks that dilemmas used aren't diverse enough they would be in for a rude awakening when it's Lovescow everywhere.
I also remember that, but I also know how limiting the OTF rules have been on developing effective multi-layered dilemma/mission interference combos.

I mean anyone seeding 6 of the same dilemmas is going to become swiss cheese vs Borg & I have yet to be at a larger tournament that didn't include at least one Borg player with adapt cards. I personally wouldn't go with using more than 2 of a dilemma anyway.

But you know a great solution to it? Errata the 'heavy hitters' with a seed one only. Make them unique. Like what they did with K Maru and move on.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#552925
DarkSabre wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:02 am
Hoss-Drone wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:45 pm
DarkSabre wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:37 pm Also the two dilemma seed rule has an effect as well. People are going to go with the cards that provide a better 'wall' instead of 'combos' due to it. It's an issue of OTF and not the cards themselves.
Well I'm an old dinosaur who remembers the horror of the same 6 combos at every mission. If anyone thinks that dilemmas used aren't diverse enough they would be in for a rude awakening when it's Lovescow everywhere.
I also remember that, but I also know how limiting the OTF rules have been on developing effective multi-layered dilemma/mission interference combos.

I mean anyone seeding 6 of the same dilemmas is going to become swiss cheese vs Borg & I have yet to be at a larger tournament that didn't include at least one Borg player with adapt cards. I personally wouldn't go with using more than 2 of a dilemma anyway.

But you know a great solution to it? Errata the 'heavy hitters' with a seed one only. Make them unique. Like what they did with K Maru and move on.
Will that help with all top-tier dilemmas? Do they all come into play like Maru is in play? If a wall that goes back under, will 'unique' help?
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#552942
Dead End is unique and is on place #1. It´s in very very many decks.

In order for the top 10 no longer be in the top 10 is to reduce their power. there are many ways to do it.

Then there will be a new top 10. To balance the dilemma situation also lower their strenght.

Then increase power of unused dilemmas (love for garanian bolites!). see shades of grey, see download 2 PAQ dilemmas etc.

Again many solutions. But to keep it simple: The top 10 are their because player consider them the best dilemmas. and the lowest 10 used dilemmas are there because player consider them to be the weakest. Thats the data. tuning the weak, downgrade the top dilemmas and we have more variaty.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#552952
Mr.Sloan wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:38 pm Dead End is unique and is on place #1. It´s in very very many decks.

In order for the top 10 no longer be in the top 10 is to reduce their power. there are many ways to do it.

Then there will be a new top 10. To balance the dilemma situation also lower their strenght.

Then increase power of unused dilemmas (love for garanian bolites!). see shades of grey, see download 2 PAQ dilemmas etc.

Again many solutions. But to keep it simple: The top 10 are their because player consider them the best dilemmas. and the lowest 10 used dilemmas are there because player consider them to be the weakest. Thats the data. tuning the weak, downgrade the top dilemmas and we have more variaty.
Dead End is not an auto include in any of my deck builds. Having a wall that can be avoid by points or an interrupt is something that isn't uber. I can't count the number of times I barreled through a weak dilemma combo + dead end because I was already over 50 points and needed that mission to win the game.

It isn't about 'the best dilemmas in the game' vs 'the weakest'. Dilemmas are situation and meta nuanced. However given the severe speed of decks now (under 6 turn wins), the copy and print way people are playing decks now, and the lack of seed slots available for real good dilemma combos makes it a lot easier to go with 'the best dilemmas that can slow down an opponent when I can only put 2 or 3 dilemmas under a mission'
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#552953
SudenKapala wrote: Will that help with all top-tier dilemmas? Do they all come into play like Maru is in play? If a wall that goes back under, will 'unique' help?
I would argue the very reason why we have a 2 seed only of dilemma-type cards is that no one wants to run into certain dilemmas 6 times in a row. OTF made simple rules fix for that situation. However the issue of lack of seed slots available for dilemma combos + the 2 seed limit = IMO the idea that certain dilemmas are considered better when you are trying to slow your opponent down for just a turn to try and squeak a win instead.

I always felt the game should have had 30 dilemma slots + 10 seed slots for other cards in the post Voyager era of the Decipher game.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#552955
DarkSabre wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:07 pm
It isn't about 'the best dilemmas in the game' vs 'the weakest'. Dilemmas are situation and meta nuanced. However given the severe speed of decks now (under 6 turn wins), the copy and print way people are playing decks now, and the lack of seed slots available for real good dilemma combos makes it a lot easier to go with 'the best dilemmas that can slow down an opponent when I can only put 2 or 3 dilemmas under a mission'
This sounds like old man yells at cloud I hate how the way things are now, darn kids and their skateboards doing things different than the way I do them. Rather than an actual critique of dilemma power and otf. With a hint of personal vendetta against the powers that be.

There is plenty of room to build all the way from Kevin style 2 dilemmas interferance deck all the way to sonsteby style 4 card combos everywhere castle and dimensions within each of those for strategies and variations. I know this bc I do this, see this and play against it.

I also know that a lot of players don't play the way I do bc they have their own style and also their own meta OR they don't know the meta and thus fall back on just "18 card good stuff" to paraphrase a mtg idea. These are all valid ways to play.

We can talk about helping out underpowered cards but there's nothing wrong with the choices players are making in their decks imho.
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