[Armus]

So over on the 1e Forum, there's an ongoing thread about whether or not Mission Stealing should be a thing beyond its current OTF hard limits.

I posted the below there to try to get some feedback on my attempt to make mission stealing more 'balanced' and less NPE-inducing, but I wanted to post it here as well because this is probably the better forum for this kind of thing.

I think I have a solution that could satisfy all parties (or nobody - it's a delicate balance)

Concepts:
-Mission stealing as primary opponent resource denial moreso than evading basic Gameplay

-The benefit to the stealing player is not the same as to the owner of the mission

-Limited to once per game

-Gives the opponent a chance to respond

-Still fits the Trek theme.

How about something like this:

Gather Critical Intelligence
Countdown: 3
Once per game, plays on an opponent's mission with an affiliation icon on your side matching one of your personnel (or where you have an Espionage card). Opponent may download and seed up to two dilemmas and your personnel may attempt and solve this mission, but score no mission points. When countdown expires, place in point area; if mission solved, score points, otherwise, lose points (Ignoring Altonian Brain Teaser). [+/- 15]

I'm seeking to provide both an incentive and risk to stealing an opponent's mission because it SHOULD be a risky undertaking. I'm also eliminating mission points because you should have to solve your own missions, as overcoming dilemmas and solving missions is one of the core mechanics of the game.

Finally, I give the opponent a chance to play defense by downloading and seeding two dilemmas of their own it removes the guarantee of success that a player can create for themselves. And with the negative points on the objective if the mission isn't solved, the right two dilemmas could cause a total backfire on the whole thing. It opens up options for Dyson Sphere Door and a return of dilemmas in the Q's Tent (remember those days?)

Finally, because risk shouldn't be self-mitigating, and rewards shouldn't be easily cancelled, I made the whole thing immune to Altonian Brain Teaser because either player could seed it there to short-circuit the whole concept. That said, since you're still solving the mission, you could get more bonus points from self seeded dilemma combos and/or Assign Mission Specialists so ABT could still be disruptive overall, just not to this specific card.

I'd love to get feedback on this concept and card design. I don't usually do a lot of this sort of thing, but this one jumped out at me.

Thanks,

-Brian

[Mogor]

I wouldn't ignore brain teasers, I would just exclude it from the downloadable dilemma's. Leaves more room for gameplay, as if they self-seed an altonian or through whatever method necessary trigger it outside of the objective. Then that's cool, and they fully deserve to nullify the points as they managed to guess.

I would throw a must have a mission complete before you can use it clause on there. Then let the download be from discard pile as well.

[Armus]

I wouldn't ignore brain teasers, I would just exclude it from the downloadable dilemma's. Leaves more room for gameplay, as if they self-seed an altonian or through whatever method necessary trigger it outside of the objective. Then that's cool, and they fully deserve to nullify the points as they managed to guess.

I would throw a must have a mission complete before you can use it clause on there. Then let the download be from discard pile as well.

Thanks Jordan, I appreciate the constructive feedback. I know that you're opposed to more mission stealing in OTF, and for valid reasons.

If this sort of thing was what 'new mission stealing' looked like, would you still see it as an existential threat to the game?

[Mogor]

I wouldn't ignore brain teasers, I would just exclude it from the downloadable dilemma's. Leaves more room for gameplay, as if they self-seed an altonian or through whatever method necessary trigger it outside of the objective. Then that's cool, and they fully deserve to nullify the points as they managed to guess.

I would throw a must have a mission complete before you can use it clause on there. Then let the download be from discard pile as well.

Thanks Jordan, I appreciate the constructive feedback. I know that you're opposed to more mission stealing in OTF, and for valid reasons.

If this sort of thing was what 'new mission stealing' looked like, would you still see it as an existential threat to the game?

This would be an alright, but I don't really call it mission stealing, it's more like the smuggling run from 2E.

Biggest concerns with this card, would be the dilemma source destinations. Rather not force everyone to store dilemmas in their tent or dyson sphere etc... So allowing previously used dilemmas from the discard pile to be downloaded and reseeded so to speak mitigates that. It does mean that other player would know what they are likely to encounter, which would be acceptable counterbalance.

But yes, this type of objective would be fine and would be a great fit for 1E, objectives that add flavor to an opponents mission fits treksense, one like what you've got here avoids functionally giving a full scan to the player. It has some risk vs hazard.

Part of my opposition to the idea of increasing mission stealing, is that I personally know that I can pass every combo that I seed on the other player. In my decks that are in the AQ, stealing earth is a rather trivial excersie and always felt unfair to the other player.

Something along the lines of this objective for say intelligence based factions, then prehaps a taking charge type inclident objective that works for the spy agencies would take care of giving a mission stealy type addition without causing the full scan of a mission issue.

The espionege cards and the current status is in a nice sweet point, since you self elect to bring the 40 point missions and you can self seed defensive measures as partial mitigation.

The espionege cards are elective for you to toss in and may or may not be dead draws.

The combination of those factors puts it in a sweet spot where mission stealing is a sometimes thing, not an always thing. Which is what it should be

I would consider throwing a mission debriefing clause into it, since that fits the treksense, they cannot be zerging the steal as they would expose themselves as spies etc...

[Iron Prime]

I think you may be on the right track. I love the idea of the opponent getting to download dilemmas (to mitigate dilemma dilution, knowing the combo, etc) - BUT I'm worried that if it's done wrong it will require people to play Dyson Sphere Door. (Though I would like to see it more).

What about if you stole a mission that was already complete? That automatically pushes the "theft" to midgame?

Gather Critical Intelligence
Countdown: 3
Once per game, plays on an opponent's completed mission with an affiliation icon on your side matching one of your personnel (or where you have an Espionage card). Opponent may download and seed up to two dilemmas (even if removed from the game). Your personnel may attempt and solve this mission. When countdown expires, place in point area; if mission solved, score points - 10, draw 2 cards.

[Not_always_but_often]

I generally like this approach. I would also add a clause that the mission needs to be unattempted, to prevent the swoop in steal still (that was always a big npe for me, wasting a bunch of effort on a mission and then having it stolen).

I think you could give the stealer full mission points even, then, since they are completing a mission and busting through a lot of dilemmas, but I like the penalty for failing. You could even have the card give your opponent bonus points for completing the mission while the objective is in play, to encourage both players to race for the mission, which in theory would add to the interactivity. I know that sounds a little contradictory since I earlier said I hated the swoop in, but makng the race to both complete it optional makes it more fun and less npe.

[Iron Prime]

I know that sounds a little contradictory since I earlier said I hated the swoop in, but makng the race to both complete it optional makes it more fun and less npe.

That's fair. There's a difference between a race to complete and having it stolen whole-sale from right under your nose...

[Mogor]

I know that sounds a little contradictory since I earlier said I hated the swoop in, but makng the race to both complete it optional makes it more fun and less npe.

That's fair. There's a difference between a race to complete and having it stolen whole-sale from right under your nose...

Could we add a count up mechanic, as all of the current mechanics I'm seeing wouldn't support the race in reality. As if this is an objective or event that I play on your mission, I'm not going to play it until I'm ready to steal it in one clean shot hopefully.

[Armus]

I think you may be on the right track. I love the idea of the opponent getting to download dilemmas (to mitigate dilemma dilution, knowing the combo, etc) - BUT I'm worried that if it's done wrong it will require people to play Dyson Sphere Door

I disagree. You don't need DSD to download dilemmas. They can just as easily come from the Tent (unless you're already playing DSD, in which case, whatever ).

If you're worried about mission stealing, then you need to decide if it's worth a tent slot or two to defend against it. Remember the days of putting Dead End in the Tent as a delaying action against Q's Planet? This is basically that - a meta call with a minimal resource cost aka a player choice.

Maybe I'm missing something though. Could you please clarify what you think 'done wrong' looks like?

[Not_always_but_often]

Could we add a count up mechanic, as all of the current mechanics I'm seeing wouldn't support the race in reality. As if this is an objective or event that I play on your mission, I'm not going to play it until I'm ready to steal it in one clean shot hopefully.

The hope would be that your opponent dropping a bunch of dilemmas would slow you down enough to make it interesting. You could also add a turn to the countdown and then have a clause that you (the stealer) could attempt starting with your next turn, so the seeder gets a first shot at it if they want.

[JeBuS]

Make the Dyson Sphere Door a free seed and I'm okay with it.

[Rachmaninoff]

Here's my attempt at drafting a card. It's a different flavor than Armus's -- I like his too, I'm just throwing out another idea.

Contest Strategic Location
Seeds on mission during mission phase. (Unique.) Dilemmas are seeded here as if both players attempted to seed this mission. You may attempt mission with your crew or Away Team matching an affiliation icon on your side (or with an appropriate Espionage card). When opponent's dilemmas here are overcome, opponent may re-seed them under another mission.

The idea: At most one mission is identified as a target for theft BEFORE dilemmas are seeded. You can protect the mission, bluff-seed it with an artifact, ignore it, whatever -- but there is only one mission that you have to deal with. Allows for clever poker games, but in a limited fashion. In any case, the stealer cannot rely on a fully known set of dilemmas when attempting the mission. The last line is added to discourage players from seeding this with no intention of solving the mission, just to disrupt an opponent's combos.

If the card is too strong, we could make it weaker by decreasing mission points, by placing a countdown icon, providing another mechanism for nullification ("Nullify if opponent has any personnel here"; "nullify if opponents' personnel here have any total attribute higher than your personnel here"; etc.), or providing a penalty if you fail to solve in a timely fashion (to compensate for disrupting the opponents' dilemmas).

If the card is too weak, we could make it stronger by providing bonuses (points, draws) to whichever player solves the mission; or by providing a secondary function for the card in case the opponent does not have any missions you want to contest.

[Iron Prime]

Maybe I'm missing something though. Could you please clarify what you think 'done wrong' looks like?

Mostly my concern is giving the impression that you must include a Q's Tent, DSD, or both. I think a clause on the card - be it new card or reworded espionages - that lets you reseed the dilemmas you already brought could be the solution.

[Armus]

Maybe I'm missing something though. Could you please clarify what you think 'done wrong' looks like?

Mostly my concern is giving the impression that you must include a Q's Tent, DSD, or both. I think a clause on the card - be it new card or reworded espionages - that lets you reseed the dilemmas you already brought could be the solution.

Given the universal utility of a Q's Tent, I find this particular argument unpersuasive. So it's a bad matchup against Treaty: Federation/Romulan/Klingon decks. I'm ok with that. They can always blow me up if they're that salty about losing access to one of their missions

[Iron Prime]

Given the universal utility of a Q's Tent, I find this particular argument unpersuasive. So it's a bad matchup against Treaty: Federation/Romulan/Klingon decks. I'm ok with that. They can always blow me up if they're that salty about losing access to one of their missions

Very fair. I'm not personally worried about it. But given all the kerfuffle a while back about "needing" to seed a BBD I was just trying to plan ahead...