What's New Dashboard Articles Forums Chat Room Achievements Tournaments Player Map The Promenade Volunteers About Us Site Index
The Continuing Committee
It is currently Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:24 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
 Espionage Cards in OTF 
Author Message
Delta Quadrant

User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:40 am
Posts: 1536
Location: Burnley, Lancashire, UK
Region: Omarion Nebula
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
Quote:
I doubt this will be the solution the CC comes up with. This is the "Silver Bullet" strategy that Decipher used to deal with unbalanced strategies, and unfortunately it led to the situation where a good portion of every competitive deck was decided before it was built because there were so many unbalanced strategies that could cost you a game and you had to include the counter for them or risk having your deck rendered ineffective. In my experience, when a CCG gets to the point where everyone's deck looks the same, the diversity of play aspect of CCG's is lost and people start to get bored.

Based on what is going on with OTF, I think it is much more likely that a series of errata will be used to try to balance Hexany strategies. That is, fixing the aspects of cards that push them from "Great" to "Broken".


Both of these remarkls are absolutely spot on, in my opinion. Making counter measure cards forces people to use the offending 'broken' card or the way to deal with it. This is a direct route to a very sterile play enviroment.

_________________
https://www.instagram.com/billyevilsunz/?hl=en


Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:32 am
Profile My Photo Gallery
Beta Quadrant
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:39 am
Posts: 315
Region: Romulus
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
Nava wrote:
I suppose that a Handshake, Smooth as an Android's Bottom, Res-Q and Beyond the Subatomic (and perhaps The Power, Mutation and Tribunal of Q / Q the Referee) will allow to warp through your draw deck nearly as fast as pre-otf...
Combine that with DQ play engines like Home away from Home, Vidiian Sodality and Hirogen Hunt, and an opponent has only a few turns left to score points :(

You Could Be Invaluable also works really well with Smooth and Remodulation. Nanoprobe Resuscitation replaces Palor Toff, but is not quite as good.


Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:51 am
Profile
Director of Communications
Director of Communications

User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:12 am
Posts: 1226
Region: Sector 001
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
So, why is it that I cannot use Espionage cards to attempt my opponent's 35 point mission again? I mean, the answer is "The rules say so" but doesn't that go counter to the whole "Card text breaks the rules" idea that is prevalent in CCGs?

I certainly agree to abide by this restriction (probably not going to play PotTS now) but I just want to understand why in this case the card doesn't override the rule. I never understood why Fair Play stopped it back in the day, to be honest. Even then, I would note to people, Fair Play stops me from attempting your mission that has a Romulan icon on it. But if I play Esp: Romulan on Klingon on your copy of Cloaked Mission, I can attempt it, right? No, they would say, Fair Play prevents it. But I would counter - Esp:RoK gets me past the Fair Play as Can overrides Can't!

But now I believe it is Can't overrides Can.

More's the pity, mission stealing was a big part of ST:TNG:CCG - LOL!

_________________
I am at your command, as always,
Scott "Neelix" Baughman
2016 US Nationals 3rd Place - First Edition
2016 US Nationals 3rd Place - Second Edition
2013 US National Champion - First Edition

@ScotticusMax @zachbunn Looks gorgeous! Is it a foil? Do they do fools in Flesh and Blood? I know very little about the game. But… https://t.co/FOFJ6phOUe


Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:55 pm
Profile
Beta Quadrant


User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 11:21 am
Posts: 644
Location: Inland Northwest
Region: Ferenginar
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
I am glad I read this post. I would have never thought to play an ESP card on a mission I was not planning on attempting.... thank you all. :)

_________________
Cheers
-Edwin.
[CF]


Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:12 pm
Profile
Beta Quadrant
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:38 pm
Posts: 156
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
Darik wrote:
So, why is it that I cannot use Espionage cards to attempt my opponent's 35 point mission again?


This OTF rule is designed to make the card Fair Play into a rule.
glossary - Fair Play wrote:
Espionage cards or other cards that allow
you to attempt missions of other affiliations will
not allow you to solve an opponent’s unique
mission if this event is in play.

-1ERL


Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:27 am
Profile
Delta Quadrant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:27 pm
Posts: 1376
Location: Ashford, UK
Region: Omarion Nebula
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
1E Rules Liaison wrote:
Darik wrote:
So, why is it that I cannot use Espionage cards to attempt my opponent's 35 point mission again?


This OTF rule is designed to make the card Fair Play into a rule.
glossary - Fair Play wrote:
Espionage cards or other cards that allow
you to attempt missions of other affiliations will
not allow you to solve an opponent’s unique
mission if this event is in play.

-1ERL


Mission stealing is a very good way to balance the abuse of some high point missions e.g. some of the Delta Quadrant missions that can be done by one person! A Romulan POTTS deck would clear up in the Delta quadrant!

One disadvantages in Earth and the Founder homeworld which are both 40 point missions - but these can be stolen.

One issue though I'd like to see universal missions protected by Fair Play (which they aren't). I would like to play a Badlands or Briar Parch deck without fear of mission stealing.

To clarify I'm right is saying OTF allows you to steal missions that are universal or 40+ points (just like fair plays text).

There are of course other ways to protect those high point missions. HQ: Defensive Measures or self seed a dilemma like Dead End.

_________________
Star Trek 1E Europeans 2014
The Final - Video
The Final - Photos
----
STCCG 1E The Next Generation Expansion Trailer
STCCG 1E Emissary Expansion Trailer
Beginners Guide - The Trouble with Timing


Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:26 am
Profile
Beta Quadrant

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:41 am
Posts: 161
Location: Ames, IA
Region: Deep Space 9
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
1E Rules Liaison wrote:
Darik wrote:
So, why is it that I cannot use Espionage cards to attempt my opponent's 35 point mission again?


This OTF rule is designed to make the card Fair Play into a rule.
glossary - Fair Play wrote:
Espionage cards or other cards that allow
you to attempt missions of other affiliations will
not allow you to solve an opponent’s unique
mission if this event is in play.

-1ERL


Rulebook page 1 wrote:
A card's specific game text always overrides a general rule.


Unless the OTF rules say to apply rulings on Fair Play to this rules section (or repeat said rulings there) I feel that "designed to" is irrelevant. It is a rule or it is not a rule. The OTF rule states "Players may not attempt or complete missions they did not seed..." The card states "Your Romulan personnel may now attempt this mission." The principle from the rulebook that cards override rules must prevail unless those rules specifically state they are not overridden by cards.

An argument could be made that while you may attempt the mission and clear dilemmas (as per the card) that you cannot complete the mission (as per the rule), but I do not see an argument in the rules as written (not rules as intended) that says you may not use an espionage card to do any mission an opponent seeds.

_________________
Nermal
The Cutest Romulan


Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:25 am
Profile
The Center of the Galaxy


User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:39 pm
Posts: 14271
Location: Alberta, Canada
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
I ain't going to lie to you - Decipher played a little fast and loose on this. (And a few other places where the "card trumps rules" isn't as clear cut as it should be.)

Doesn't help that OTF's rule is slightly more restrictive than the card it's replacing. (Which is mainly to remove all doubt).

So, in OTF, here's how I'm gonna say it works for now - yes, Espionage will let you get around OTF's "you can't attempt" rule (because cards are supposed to trump rules), but since Espionage doesn't specifically let you "solve" the mission (and OTF/Fair Play specifically says you *can't* solve), it's still a really bad idea.

_________________
Join the CC Discord channel!
Quote:
(I also played 2E for several tedious years.)


Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:27 am
Profile
Gamma Quadrant


User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:00 am
Posts: 6382
Location: USS Constellation (orbiting Boston)
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
Careful there, Allen -- sometimes people will want to attempt a mission they can't solve, often to trigger a dangerous dilemma which will affect their opponent there, like Dal'rok or Horta.

_________________
Commodore Matt Decker
Job: Testing

Hundreds of tribbles. Thousands of tribbles. Millions and billions and trillions of tribbles.
We live for the Glossary, we die for the Glossary.


Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:24 pm
Profile
The Center of the Galaxy

User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:04 am
Posts: 10561
Region: Ferenginar
Post Re: Espionage Cards in OTF
commdecker wrote:
Careful there, Allen -- sometimes people will want to attempt a mission they can't solve, often to trigger a dangerous dilemma which will affect their opponent there, like Dal'rok or Horta.


Triggering a Caretaker's Wave might be cool...

_________________
Quote:
[Y]our report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the Dark Ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No!


Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:28 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Keiimaster and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Terms of Use

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.