This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
 
By adf8
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#285966
CrimsonRavage wrote:
Pants o.t. Tal Shiar wrote: Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not sure if I'd rather have Artillery or a doubled Armus. Maybe it would depend on the other dilemmas in the combo.
Depends if you set it up right.
One of my favorite combos... I usually finish with Horta
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By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
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1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2019
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#285967
Q Ref, suspend play, download and shuffle...

(If not for that little trick, I would use that combo more often)
 
By adf8
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#285968
KazonPADD wrote:Q Ref, suspend play, download and shuffle...

(If not for that little trick, I would use that combo more often)
With Q's Tent: Civil War, I haven't found this to be that reliable anymore, because all the [Ref] cards are in the QT:CW not the draw deck...unless you mean you stock The Juggler in your tent?
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By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
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#285971
adf8 wrote:
KazonPADD wrote:Q Ref, suspend play, download and shuffle...

(If not for that little trick, I would use that combo more often)
With Q's Tent: Civil War, I haven't found this to be that reliable anymore, because all the [Ref] cards are in the QT:CW not the draw deck...unless you mean you stock The Juggler in your tent?
QT:CW doesn't force Ref cards to be in the tent, so in the attempt to download nothing stops you from initially searching (and then shuffling) your draw deck first, before searching in your tent. And yeah, The Juggler could pull that off too, but for this, I'd rather get two for one, have the shuffling effect and download something else useful.
 
By adf8
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#285972
KazonPADD wrote:
adf8 wrote:
KazonPADD wrote:Q Ref, suspend play, download and shuffle...

(If not for that little trick, I would use that combo more often)
With Q's Tent: Civil War, I haven't found this to be that reliable anymore, because all the [Ref] cards are in the QT:CW not the draw deck...unless you mean you stock The Juggler in your tent?
QT:CW doesn't force Ref cards to be in the tent, so in the attempt to download nothing stops you from initially searching (and then shuffling) your draw deck first, before searching in your tent. And yeah, The Juggler could pull that off too, but for this, I'd rather get two for one, have the shuffling effect and download something else useful.
Interesting, I don't play on the tournament scene, so in our local group - if we know we didn't stock REF cards in our draw deck (which we don't anymore) we don't search it - I didn't realize you could kind of fake it...hmm...kind of takes some of the fun out of it, no?
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By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
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#285973
adf8 wrote:Interesting, I don't play on the tournament scene, so in our local group - if we know we didn't stock REF cards in our draw deck (which we don't anymore) we don't search it - I didn't realize you could kind of fake it...hmm...kind of takes some of the fun out of it, no?
Not really, it's no worse than any other tricks in the game (ie special downloads of Out of Time, Near Warp Transport, other dilemma avoidance tricks, etc)
 
By Dunnagh (Andreas Micheel)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Contender
#285974
yeah, I always found that to be a bit "meh", too. I think there should be a rule that says "if you try to download from a source but can´t, your opponent may look through that resource and verify you can´t".

Currently,such a rule is only in place for mandatory downloads.

Apart from that, there is only this:
If you attempt a download using a resource such as your card draw and the download is invalid because no target card is available, you may not attempt to use that download again unless a downloading source is replenished (discard pile regenerated into the draw deck) or reopened (a closed Q’s Tent).
Discarding Q the Referee seems to be "using a resource", so if in this game at any time you attempted to download a [Ref] card from your draw deck, it seems you may not do so again until your draw deck is replenished - even if there were no [Ref] cards in your discard pile.

<edit: again, sorry to say the picture doesnt work for me. I dont know if there are more artillery shots in this episode, but the original image just is perfect for this card.

As to Artillery vs. Armus:
With the amount of Interrupts and Incidents in decks nowadays, there are, I guess, 50/50 chances that you will get a non-personnel card. IF you do, you will probably kill 3-5 guys (GREAT!). If you dont, you will kill 1 (BAD!). It doesnt stop the away team, so they will continue. With no built-in wall you need a wall before that. And with 1 bad probe you have wasted 2 dilemmas (wall and killer), which very well can cost you the game.

Armus will always kill 2 AND you can discard the related Event to seed an additional Armus dilemma somewhere. So: Armus, as fun as it sounds, is much more reliable.
 
By adf8
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#285977
KazonPADD wrote:
adf8 wrote:Interesting, I don't play on the tournament scene, so in our local group - if we know we didn't stock REF cards in our draw deck (which we don't anymore) we don't search it - I didn't realize you could kind of fake it...hmm...kind of takes some of the fun out of it, no?
Not really, it's no worse than any other tricks in the game (ie special downloads of Out of Time, Near Warp Transport, other dilemma avoidance tricks, etc)
But those are all legit actions, if there was a REF card in the draw deck, I'd be fine with that as well... But when it's completely fake just to avoid something... It doesn't seem in the spirit of the game. In my opinion, ypu shouldn't get the value of a REF card in your draw deck, without also paying the cost of it (potentially drawing it when you don't want to).

@Dunnagh... Completely agree... It would be nice to have a similar ruling around this scenario
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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#285980
Dunnagh wrote:yeah, I always found that to be a bit "meh", too. I think there should be a rule that says "if you try to download from a source but can´t, your opponent may look through that resource and verify you can´t".

Currently,such a rule is only in place for mandatory downloads.

Apart from that, there is only this:
If you attempt a download using a resource such as your card draw and the download is invalid because no target card is available, you may not attempt to use that download again unless a downloading source is replenished (discard pile regenerated into the draw deck) or reopened (a closed Q’s Tent).
Discarding Q the Referee seems to be "using a resource", so if in this game at any time you attempted to download a [Ref] card from your draw deck, it seems you may not do so again until your draw deck is replenished - even if there were no [Ref] cards in your discard pile.
If the download is invalid because no target card is available, then this kicks in. But the download KazonPADD is suggesting is not invalid. He announces he is downloading a Ref card by discarding Q the Ref, he searches all valid download sources, he eventually locates an appropriate Ref card in his Q's Tent Civil War, he downloads it into play, then shuffles all sources. Valid download, free shuffle.

If KazonPADD tried this and did not actually have a Ref card in any source, then you're right: the download would be invalid, and he would not be able to try this again until replenishing the draw deck.

In casual play, I pretty frequently use [DL] icons, when I know I don't have the target card, to take a free look through my deck. For example, I hit Matriarchal Society and realize suddenly that I don't have a lot of females in play, and possibly not in my deck; let's use Third of Five's download of Group of Individuals to look through the deck and find out how many females I have total -- can I even pass this dilemma? It never occurred to me to use them for a free shuffle, too, but I'll definitely be doing that now.

It's a cheesy little trick, but there's no sane way to prevent it without seriously penalizing innocent players who just forget where they were keeping a particular card. (Who among us has not occasionally searched through their entire deck and Q's Tent looking for a card only to realize that it was actually in your hand the whole time? And haven't we all occasionally put a card in our draw deck by accident that was supposed to be in our Q's Tent?)
 
By adf8
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#285981
BCSWowbagger wrote: It's a cheesy little trick, but there's no sane way to prevent it without seriously penalizing innocent players who just forget where they were keeping a particular card. (Who among us has not occasionally searched through their entire deck and Q's Tent looking for a card only to realize that it was actually in your hand the whole time? And haven't we all occasionally put a card in our draw deck by accident that was supposed to be in our Q's Tent?)
That's total cheese!!! :)

But I think you're talking about 2 different things:
- Forgetting, which we've all done
- Intentionally abusing (e.g., Group of Individuals doesn't even exist, you clearly didn't put any REF cards in your draw deck because they're all in your QT:CV, etc.)

The first is completely understandable IMHO, the second is abusive and detracts from the spirit of the game (again, just in my opinion) - which is actually one of the things that keeps me from more actively trying to make time to play competitively
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By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
 - First Edition Creative Manager
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#285982
adf8 wrote:That's total cheese!!! :)
I still can't decide on my favourite cheese... Brie, Port Salut, or Dr McCoy downloading I'm a Doctor not a Bartender to turn Guinan into Kes, downloading The Gift and jumping out mid-mission attempt.
 
By adf8
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#285985
KazonPADD wrote:
adf8 wrote:That's total cheese!!! :)
I still can't decide on my favourite cheese... Brie, Port Salut, or Dr McCoy downloading I'm a Doctor not a Bartender to turn Guinan into Kes, downloading The Gift and jumping out mid-mission attempt.
That's a good one... But don't underestimate a nice Jarlsberg :)
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By arjan242
 - Ambassador
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Contender
#285988
To get back to the OP, my hopes for Virtual Promo set I and for any VP set to follow: VP's from CC sets or from Depcipher era cards that got errata. I would have loved for example to see the XX set as VP foils, same art but foiled.
Just my :twocents:
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By KazonPADD (Paddy Tye)
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#285989
We did get Evade Borg Vessel in foil recently, so hopefully we'll see more. The Borg Enterprise-E would be gorgeous in foil!
 
By adf8
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#285993
KazonPADD wrote:We did get Evade Borg Vessel in foil recently, so hopefully we'll see more. The Borg Enterprise-E would be gorgeous in foil!
:thumbsup:

I'd also kill for a foiled French version of H:CdA!

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