This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.

How should we proceed with Will of the Collective VIII?

We stay the course.
8
16%
We keep this card, but it won't be Gagh.
24
49%
We go back to the 2nd place card text.
17
35%
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#535847
Hi folks,

I hope those of you in the US, or anywhere else, that celebrated Thanksgiving had a good (and safe) day. Over the last ten (10) days, we put a pause on moving forward with the Will of the Collective process to allow for some public playtesting. It looks like the data we got is largely positive on the card, with some concerns, but there are concerns about a potential mismatch between the game text and the story.

Your choice today is to determine how we move forward as part of the Will of the Collective. Remember, this is a community, collaborative design process and the final product is based on your choices. We're all working together to make this card, and that doesn't change now.

I see three (3) paths forward for us:

1) We stay the course. We've done approval voting on the steps so far, and it's gotten us here. I think the card we have is well thought out and well done, and I'm confident we can use Creative treatment to get it to a great place. If we choose this option, WotC8 continues normally.

2) We keep this card, but it won't be Gagh. We can keep the card we've made, but set aside the original title. I'll make sure our design teams make closing the Gagh broken link a priority, but it won't be with this card. If we choose this option, WotC8 continues, but won't end up with a card called Gagh. The design teams will be asked to make Gagh ASAP.

3) We go back to the 2nd place card text. In Step 6, we picked the card text we have now. There were two options tied for second place. If we go this route, we'll go back and do a run-off vote between those two options and proceed from there. The current card text will be handed off to our design teams to find a home for and continue to develop. If we choose this option, the current card gets handed off to the design teams, and we go back to picking game text.

Note: In order to "back track," i.e. option #3, this will need to both be the winning choice and exceed the original number of votes in the previous step. In this case, it needs at least nineteen (19) votes to succeed.

I leave the decision up to all of you. This will be another approval vote, meaning you can vote for each option that you agree with. Voting remains open for two days, closing around 11:20 AM Pacific on Wednesday, December 2nd. You can change your vote at any time, so please use this thread to argue your points and, if persuaded, change your vote.

Please cast your votes, make your arguments, and keep the process moving forward! I appreciate all of your discussion and participation - keep it up!

-crp
User avatar
Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#535857
Also, let me know if you find any of the options unclear. I wrote and rewrote this post about five times, and I'm still second guessing myself. So please, don't hesitate to ask if something is even a little confusing.

-crp
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#535858
MidnightLich wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:58 pm Also, let me know if you find any of the options unclear. I wrote and rewrote this post about five times, and I'm still second guessing myself. So please, don't hesitate to ask if something is even a little confusing.

-crp
My read was
1. Continue as normal
2. Change the name, make Gagh Design's problem
3. DQ this card text for (insert your national variation of election joke here), do a new poll to decide whether 2nd or 3rd place was right.

?
User avatar
Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#535860
AllenGould wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:14 pm
MidnightLich wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:58 pm Also, let me know if you find any of the options unclear. I wrote and rewrote this post about five times, and I'm still second guessing myself. So please, don't hesitate to ask if something is even a little confusing.

-crp
My read was
1. Continue as normal
2. Change the name, make Gagh Design's problem
3. DQ this card text for (insert your national variation of election joke here), do a new poll to decide whether 2nd or 3rd place was right.

?
Essentially, yes. Except #2 would be more of a mandate to design: do this ASAP.

-crp
User avatar
 
By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#535861
Just a point of note: A vote for #3 still gets option 2 as well. The difference is Design will finish up the not Gagh we started instead of us, and we get to finish Gagh from one of the second place options; so we still pretty much get what we already made and something else.
 
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Community Contributor
#535888
I've gone for option 2, keep the card but it won't be Gagh. I think the biggest problem is the name + Chef Kaga's download, so this addresses that issue while keeping as close to the collective's will as possible.

There's nothing stopping us from using something related to Klingon dining or gatherings as the new title/theme. It just won't be Gagh.

All the Best,

Mattgomery Scott.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Community Contributor
#535913
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:27 pm Just a point of note: A vote for #3 still gets option 2 as well. The difference is Design will finish up the not Gagh we started instead of us, and we get to finish Gagh from one of the second place options; so we still pretty much get what we already made and something else.
How's this work? A vote for Option 2 includes Option 3 (because Charlie said: if Option 2 wins, this card will happen under a new title and Design will be asked to make a different card called Gagh post-haste).

However, I don't see much indication of the reverse. If we vote Option 3, this gametext goes to Design Team Limbo. I doubt we'll ever see it (although I could be wrong).

I quite like this gametext (although I'm obviously quite biased), so I voted Options 1 and 2.
User avatar
Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#535915
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:27 pm Just a point of note: A vote for #3 still gets option 2 as well. The difference is Design will finish up the not Gagh we started instead of us, and we get to finish Gagh from one of the second place options; so we still pretty much get what we already made and something else.
This isn't necessarily true. There won't be a mandate for this card to find a home, so it's entirely up to an individual designer/design team if they want to use the idea.

-crp

Edit: I see James asked a similar question, so hopefully this addresses that too.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Trailblazer
1E Cardassia Regional Champion 2023
#535929
MidnightLich wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:19 pm
Professor Scott wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:27 pm Just a point of note: A vote for #3 still gets option 2 as well. The difference is Design will finish up the not Gagh we started instead of us, and we get to finish Gagh from one of the second place options; so we still pretty much get what we already made and something else.
This isn't necessarily true. There won't be a mandate for this card to find a home, so it's entirely up to an individual designer/design team if they want to use the idea.

-crp

Edit: I see James asked a similar question, so hopefully this addresses that too.
3) We go back to the 2nd place card text. In Step 6, we picked the card text we have now. There were two options tied for second place. If we go this route, we'll go back and do a run-off vote between those two options and proceed from there. The current card text will be handed off to our design teams to find a home for and continue to develop. If we choose this option, the current card gets handed off to the design teams, and we go back to picking game text.

This is what I based my comment on. I just assumed handing off to design teams to find a home for and continue to develop, implied they were being tasked to do so post haste. I apologize if I swayed anyone's vote based on my assumption.
Last edited by Professor Scott on Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Regent
Community Contributor
#535930
edgeofhearing wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:05 pm The second place card texts are just as weirdly mechanical as the current text (especially the one that specifically calls out Expand the Empire). I guess I'm a B.
+1

I'm not sure how the alternatives "feel more like Gagh" than what we already have.
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Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Prophet
#535933
Professor Scott wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:07 pmI just assumed handing off to design teams to find a home for and continue to develop, implied they were being tasked to do so post haste.
Sorry for the confusion. We have a "whiteboard" area where card ideas get posted and can be used by anyone. That's where this card will go if we stop work on it. It'll be there if someone likes it and wants to use it, but I won't make it any more urgent than any other idea.

If option #2 goes forward, I will immediately find someone to take up the charge of making Gagh. So I get the confusion, and I apologize for it.

-crp
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By boromirofborg (Trek Barnes)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2023
#535946
Just a minor note, but it would have been nice to have either the current text, or a link to the current text, and ideally a link to the runner up text in the main post, rather then having to go looking for what it was. (Having admittedly not thought about it much over the thanksgiving holiday.)
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 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#535953
For reference, the winner:
Gagh Mk 14 wrote:Seeds or plays on table. If playing only [Kli], you may play any [Evt], [Int], or [Obj] with "Klingon" or [Kli] in gametext from your Q's Tent as if from your hand.
And the runners-up:
Gagh Mk 9 wrote:[2] Plays on table. Once each turn, you may discard a card from hand to download an Event or Interrupt with “Klingon” in its title or game text. Does not countdown if you control a cook.
Gagh Mk 12 wrote:Seeds or plays on table. You may download Expand the Empire, expanding it to include [1E-DS9] [Kli] personel. Expand the Empire is no longer discarded and may be used thrice per game.
:twocents: : Gagh Mk 9 "feels more like Gagh" in that a Klingon boon card could be themed around any aspect of Klingon culture, but the bonus for having a cook ties it more specifically to Klingon food. I'm not sure that's enough reason for it to be the pick, but I do see the story connection with it better than I do with the alternatives.

I previously cast a vote for Visit Gagh Memorial, though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
 
By Borg King
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#535962
I'm a bit confused; why is it all or nothing? We just had a playtest week with the card, so shouldn't we just be tweaking it based on feedback?

For example, I think removing it's ability to seed will reestablish a connection with the Klingon cook and the broken link aspect while still maintaining the functionality and theme. Why would I throw out the whole card (basically) and start again? Shouldn't we just tweak what's not working until it does? Or is the overall feedback that the whole thing is a mess (and is there another place to find this feedback aside from the WOTC threads?)?

:borg:
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