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#544055
The Guardian wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:16 pm And hey, I think he changed. When he says he misses the Federation in the beginning of season 6, he's changed quite a bit.
I never read it that way. My read was that it was his realization that while the Feds are full of themselves, they at least eat, drink, and have sex. He can work with the Feds, because he can supply a need to the Federation. The Dominion wants nothing that he's offering, and thus they're a threat not only to him, but to Ferengi as a whole.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
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#544066
Yeah, he complains about not being able to sell stuff. He's not missing the Federation because they're the Federation; he's missing them because they're better customers than Jem'Hadar or Vorta.
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By The Guardian (Richard New)
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#544076
I think there’s a layer there. I think Quark is saying that stuff to put up his Ferengi front (and he will never be all the way there), but I think he appreciates the Federation for more than just their markets. They are kind, fair, and forgiving and they aren’t going to kill his brother (although that statement might be right before that). Remember, it’s not that the Jem’Hadar don’t buy anything (they don’t), but what really bugs Quark is that they’re creepy. The Dominion is full of markets as the Ferengi discovered earlier in the series. He’s probably not hurting there (plus, there’s the Cardassians, which are drunken, gambling, sex addicts), but I can understand the read that he’s really into root beer futures. I definitely could be making more out of his motivations in my head.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
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#544111
Isn't the Wormhole effectively closed at that point in the series, especially to the Dominion? That cuts off access to Gamma Quadrant markets for the Ferengi, too.

And the Cardassians might be customers, but they tend to harass the staff and damage the bar more than the Federation and its allies do (well, mostly it's Klingons who trash the bar, but they don't have as much of a presence on DS9 as the Cardassians do on Terok Nor). So Quark has fewer customers and, probably, higher repair bills.

Ultimately Quark's not much into the weapons business, which means he prefers peace, since that's better for his business. And he knows full well that Starfleet's not going to rest until they've at least retaken the station (Sisko left his baseball behind, don't forget--never mind Jake), which means he's not going to have peace except with Federation/Bajoran control of the station.

The immediate focus of his complaint might be root beer (I don't think it's futures; I think he probably has an overstock that he can't sell) but ultimately he wants the best environment he can have in which to do business and make a profit, and that's when the Federation is in charge of Deep Space Nine and the Wormhole is open since nobody's trying to use it to invade anyone.
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By The Guardian (Richard New)
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#544116
nobthehobbit wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:33 pmIsn't the Wormhole effectively closed at that point in the series, especially to the Dominion? That cuts off access to Gamma Quadrant markets for the Ferengi, too.
That's a good point.
nobthehobbit wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:33 pmAnd the Cardassians might be customers, but they tend to harass the staff and damage the bar more than the Federation and its allies do (well, mostly it's Klingons who trash the bar, but they don't have as much of a presence on DS9 as the Cardassians do on Terok Nor). So Quark has fewer customers and, probably, higher repair bills.
Interesting. I never got the impression that Cardassians were destructive in that way. They like order and Quark operated under their ministrations for awhile already. Seemed to like it. In fact, once the Federation moved in, that's when he decided to pack up shop.
nobthehobbit wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:33 pmUltimately Quark's not much into the weapons business, which means he prefers peace, since that's better for his business. And he knows full well that Starfleet's not going to rest until they've at least retaken the station (Sisko left his baseball behind, don't forget--never mind Jake), which means he's not going to have peace except with Federation/Bajoran control of the station.
You're forgetting the 34th Rule of Acquisition. (Probably not.) I think that goes to what I was saying about the Federation having an effect on him. Peace being good for business is much more his forte at that point. There was a time that Quark didn't bat an eye at profiting off the Occupation, despite the sympathy that he had for the Bajorans. I honestly think the weapons thing was the last hurrah of the old Quark. Yes, a strike against my point of view (as you alluded to) is that he had always resisted Gaila's urgings to get into the weapons business until he was in financial straights, but I think that suggests that he never really had a stomach for promoting war, drawing that line just past profiting from it. I don't know if I'd say the same thing about later-series Quark.
nobthehobbit wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:33 pmThe immediate focus of his complaint might be root beer (I don't think it's futures; I think he probably has an overstock that he can't sell)...
Sorry. That was just a joke. Trying to word it in a fun way.

As a side note, I really didn't mean to hijack the thread. I think Quark is a complicated character. I think he starts as a villain, but isn't one by the end. I don't think he even has it in him to be one anymore.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
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#544131
The Guardian wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:27 pm
nobthehobbit wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:33 pmAnd the Cardassians might be customers, but they tend to harass the staff and damage the bar more than the Federation and its allies do (well, mostly it's Klingons who trash the bar, but they don't have as much of a presence on DS9 as the Cardassians do on Terok Nor). So Quark has fewer customers and, probably, higher repair bills.
Interesting. I never got the impression that Cardassians were destructive in that way. They like order and Quark operated under their ministrations for awhile already. Seemed to like it. In fact, once the Federation moved in, that's when he decided to pack up shop.
Maybe not that destructive, but they could be surly drunks sometimes (look at Damar). And anyway there weren't as many of them as during the Occupation, and the Founder was there, so there may have been some self-consciousness about wanting not to look too bad compared to the fastidious Jem'Hadar and Vorta.

Quark wanted to pack up shop since he thought the Federation would be bad for business (being internally post-capitalist and all) but after a while he realized that, in fact, he was doing just as well with humans (and now Bajorans!) as customers as with Cardassians.
The Guardian wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:27 pm
nobthehobbit wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:33 pmUltimately Quark's not much into the weapons business, which means he prefers peace, since that's better for his business. And he knows full well that Starfleet's not going to rest until they've at least retaken the station (Sisko left his baseball behind, don't forget--never mind Jake), which means he's not going to have peace except with Federation/Bajoran control of the station.
You're forgetting the 34th Rule of Acquisition. (Probably not.) I think that goes to what I was saying about the Federation having an effect on him. Peace being good for business is much more his forte at that point. There was a time that Quark didn't bat an eye at profiting off the Occupation, despite the sympathy that he had for the Bajorans. I honestly think the weapons thing was the last hurrah of the old Quark. Yes, a strike against my point of view (as you alluded to) is that he had always resisted Gaila's urgings to get into the weapons business until he was in financial straights, but I think that suggests that he never really had a stomach for promoting war, drawing that line just past profiting from it. I don't know if I'd say the same thing about later-series Quark.
I'm not forgetting the 34th Rule; my point is that for what Quark is good at doing, peace is better for his best lines of business than war is. War and peace are both good for business, but not necessarily equally so for the individual businessperson. Quark can't move as much tulaberry wine in wartime; Gaila can't move as many weapons in peacetime. He's not bad at handling small military goods (look at his dealings with Natima Lang and Sakonna), and he can still do some stuff with military equipment (stealing a cloaking device in "The Emperor's New Cloak") but ultimately he makes more money--and is a good deal personally safer--price-gouging on root beer and holosuite time, rigging dabo tables, and trading with the Dosi and the Karemma.
The Guardian wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:27 pm
nobthehobbit wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:33 pmThe immediate focus of his complaint might be root beer (I don't think it's futures; I think he probably has an overstock that he can't sell)...
Sorry. That was just a joke. Trying to word it in a fun way.

As a side note, I really didn't mean to hijack the thread. I think Quark is a complicated character. I think he starts as a villain, but isn't one by the end. I don't think he even has it in him to be one anymore.
I think that more describes Rom than Quark. Quark is a consummate businessman, going wherever he sees the best opportunities for profit. He was doing good business under the Occupation and thought the Federation would cut into his profits--and for a while, his profits probably did drop, since the station wasn't that busy. But eventually it became busier than it ever was under the Cardassians, he became the primary point of contact between the Ferengi Alliance and the Dosi and Karemma, he was able to diversify his business somewhat (more species visiting the station means more types of food and drink you can sell, which reduces the risk of shortages), and, as noted, he was, by and large, probably just personally safer with the Federation around. (And after all, you can't enjoy your profits if you're dead.)
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By The Guardian (Richard New)
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#544141
We seem to have two questions:

[SD] Was Quark ever a villain on DS9?
[SD] Did his change to a Federation preference have to do with a change in his character or a reevaluation of his business prospects?

Is it possible that all answers are true? That he was always pretending to be a "good Ferengi" (read: cutthroat danger to society) and that he was always a little bit Federation? His mother seemed to think he was like his dad in that regard. Is it possible that nobody challenged this act until the Federation came along and made it safe to be a more honest businessman? Could Brunt have been right about him?

I'm all for saying that if Walter White was always Heisenberg, then Quark could always have been just a rascal. But when Walter pretended to be a family man, he was one. Consequently, when Quark played at crime, he was a criminal. I understand if people disagree.

I'm going to rethink my assumptions about the Federation's role in his character change, but I'd say that him coming out of his shell is a character change and a reevaluation of his business prospects.
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By Ensign Q
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#544570
so what i get from it ds9 depth was religion/politics which i wasnt very much into back in the day. And it had strong characters, which i agree on. Id say the best characters in the franchise even.

I guess the episodic problem solving structure of TNG made us feel smarter than we actually were.

i found a reddit topic which describes my current mood i guess

"You truly can’t go home again. This phrase, which is the title of a Thomas Wolfe novel in 1940, communicates a deep melancholy about the ways society and communities change over time. The home that we once knew can never truly be returned to after its time has passed. "
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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#544571
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:29 pm so what i get from it ds9 depth was religion/politics which i wasnt very much into back in the day. And it had strong characters, which i agree on. Id say the best characters in the franchise even.

I guess the episodic problem solving structure of TNG made us feel smarter than we actually were.

i found a reddit topic which describes my current mood i guess

"You truly can’t go home again. This phrase, which is the title of a Thomas Wolfe novel in 1940, communicates a deep melancholy about the ways society and communities change over time. The home that we once knew can never truly be returned to after its time has passed. "
I think the shorter version of that is "The only constant is change."
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#544577
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:29 pm I guess the episodic problem solving structure of TNG made us feel smarter than we actually were.
Well, for values of problem solving that all boil down to "oh, here's the button!" :P

All sci-fi is a product of it's time. The good stuff stays relevant longer because it's less tied to a specific moment in time. The bad stuff is Season 3 Enterprise.
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By The Guardian (Richard New)
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#544638
Armus wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:33 pm
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:29 pm"You truly can’t go home again. This phrase, which is the title of a Thomas Wolfe novel in 1940, communicates a deep melancholy about the ways society and communities change over time. The home that we once knew can never truly be returned to after its time has passed."
I think the shorter version of that is "The only constant is change."
Ooh! Ooh! "You can't step in the same river twice."
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