This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#493046
Hard to believe we're almost at 6 years since universal printability.

I still remember shortly after I became an active poster here suggesting that All Good Things and maybe The Motion Pictures become printable and being dismissed as a "kid" because of it.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
President
Community Contributor
#493048
AllenGould wrote:A note on WDGNWAS? - You won't find a lot of cards in the cut file, because cool ships that would do something tended to get spiked before they made the file at all. :(
We are about to celebrate the 5-year anniversary of WDGNWAS?'s ban. Are there any ships released in that time period that wouldn't be fine with WDGNWAS?

If yes, then the ban has yielded fruit.

If no, then possibly the cool ships WDGNWAS? was killing were flawed in other ways and were never going to see press regardless.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#493051
BCSWowbagger wrote:
AllenGould wrote:A note on WDGNWAS? - You won't find a lot of cards in the cut file, because cool ships that would do something tended to get spiked before they made the file at all. :(
We are about to celebrate the 5-year anniversary of WDGNWAS?'s ban. Are there any ships released in that time period that wouldn't be fine with WDGNWAS?

If yes, then the ban has yielded fruit.

If no, then possibly the cool ships WDGNWAS? was killing were flawed in other ways and were never going to see press regardless.
Fair, but one of the problems with our "ban then errata" policy is that you still have to design around the banned card until you find out what the new text is. (Otherwise you end up in Red Alert territory where you have to work around all the *other* cards that assume that RA works a certain way.)
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#493059
Having read the Tox entry... I always assumed (since I wasn't really on CC when it got banned) that it was banned because people were just blowing up locations right and left. Reading that entry is seems like only one playgroup drove the decision and even then only because that playgroup had some new recruits that were losing interest because of it (hate to be harsh but that is the fault of whoever was playing Tox not helping the new players out, not the car itself).

So can anyone offer me a compelling reason why this card shouldn't come off the ban list? It is VERY resource intensive and can be undone by a kevin uxbridge, so I wonder how many people would even try to commit the resources to do it. plus most decks don't just have a single non-time location reporting place these days.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
President
Community Contributor
#493504
Having finally finished researching this list, and because I really want to procastinate some other work I'm supposed to be doing tonight... here is my Revised List Of Errata Hot Takes (which has changed a lot thanks to what I learned here):

SEND TO PLAYTESTING WITHOUT CHANGES
Dixon Hill
Tox Uthat
What Does God Need With A Starship?

SEND TO PLAYTESTING WITH EASY TWEAKS
Clone Machine: delete "for free" and it's good
Delta Quadrant Spatial Scission: delete "and you may play a personnel or draw a card," and it's good
Destroy Radioactive Garbage Scow: "Discard opponent's Scow" and it's good. (Modern wording update while in there.)
Ceti Eel: reword like Outgunned, e.g.: "You may place on opponent's non- [Holo], non-android personnel present with your Khan (at start of personnel battle, limit twice every turn) OR on such a personnel you control (twice each turn)." (I think that just fits.)

LEAVE BANNED FOREVER
[Ref] Fair Play
[Ref] General Quarters
[Ref] Intermix Ratio
[Ref] The Big Picture
[Ref] You Are A Monument
(these are all the [Ref] cards that are too important in Open to be errata'd)

EVERYTHING ELSE
This research proved one thing to me: Errata is hard, ban management is hard, and there's lots of concerns to balance. I want all these other cards back, and I have some ideas on many of them... but I don't think any of the rest have super-easy low-risk obvious answers. I know for a fact that Errata is working on them, though, and I'm glad we've got such a good Errata team on the case.
AllenGould wrote:Fair, but one of the problems with our "ban then errata" policy is that you still have to design around the banned card until you find out what the new text is. (Otherwise you end up in Red Alert territory where you have to work around all the *other* cards that assume that RA works a certain way.)
I never do this, personally. I just assume that, whenever Card X gets errata, the errata will reflect changes in the gameplay environment between the day it was banned and today -- including any new cards that get in the way.

Design's hard enough without worrying about what an errata might say months or years in the future.
 
By Borg King
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#494306
I just want to say thank you for this outstandingly comprehensive list and explanation of the banned cards! It is no small feat; all the research must have been extremely time consuming!

We are on day four of a declared State of Emergency here in NL after a record setting 76cm of snowfall (on top of the 100+ that has already fallen since the start of December) after a major blizzard, so I've finally had the opportunity to read through it all very carefully, and having a resource like this I think will really help the community attempt to brainstorm some solutions on how to trimmed down the banned cards!

This is something I'm going to be coming back to often and I hope this helps to push some of these cards into testing to try and find solutions!

:borg:
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
President
Community Contributor
#494320
Borg King wrote:I just want to say thank you for this outstandingly comprehensive list and explanation of the banned cards! It is no small feat; all the research must have been extremely time consuming!
To be honest, if I had realized what a big undertaking it was going to be, I never would have started it. I thought I'd just zoom through and update MilesStuntDouble's original list in maybe three sessions of one hour each!

But I'm glad I did. The stuff I ended up reading was fascinating, and I learned a lot, not just about the banned cards.
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By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#494893
Takket wrote:Having read the Tox entry... I always assumed (since I wasn't really on CC when it got banned) that it was banned because people were just blowing up locations right and left. Reading that entry is seems like only one playgroup drove the decision and even then only because that playgroup had some new recruits that were losing interest because of it (hate to be harsh but that is the fault of whoever was playing Tox not helping the new players out, not the car itself).

So can anyone offer me a compelling reason why this card shouldn't come off the ban list? It is VERY resource intensive and can be undone by a kevin uxbridge, so I wonder how many people would even try to commit the resources to do it. plus most decks don't just have a single non-time location reporting place these days.
You have to remember that players will play what is good, not what is nice. That being said. If there is cards in the game that can be used to win/be better/beat new players etc. players will use them even if it's counter productive to the state of the play group as I doubt it was the person that was taking on the new players that used Tox Uthat in those games. That's why there can't be "evil" cards that anyone can play in a card pool available to new players.

So unless the Super Nova can be fixed in a nice way and still be used with Bashir Founder to defend against armada decks then I hope that cards like it will stay on the Ban list or find a way to mitigate the bad.
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By WeAreBack
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#543982
I was about to throw a copy of Memory Wipe into a Museum of Kyrian Heritage deck, when I remebered "Oh yeah, that card is super banned!" (The issue is that you need to seed U.S.S. Voyager so you can RDD for Janeway, but unless you seed U.S.S. Equinox instead, you have to wait to Holodeck Door Iden).

It occurs to me that the way I was about to use Memory Wipe is how the errata should go: it should be limited to your own ships. This is especially useful in decks where the mechanism for personnel to work together is "mix regardless of affiliation" like Children of Light rather than a treaty, since ships aren't affected by those kinds of cards.

That is, Memory Wipe should just read:
Seeds on table; your opponent's cards may mix regardless of affiliation. OR Plays on your non- [Bor] ship; ship, crew and ship's Away Teams lose affiliation and become [Non].
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#544092
WeAreBack wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:54 pm I was about to throw a copy of Memory Wipe into a Museum of Kyrian Heritage deck, when I remebered "Oh yeah, that card is super banned!" (The issue is that you need to seed U.S.S. Voyager so you can RDD for Janeway, but unless you seed U.S.S. Equinox instead, you have to wait to Holodeck Door Iden).

It occurs to me that the way I was about to use Memory Wipe is how the errata should go: it should be limited to your own ships. This is especially useful in decks where the mechanism for personnel to work together is "mix regardless of affiliation" like Children of Light rather than a treaty, since ships aren't affected by those kinds of cards.

That is, Memory Wipe should just read:
Seeds on table; your opponent's cards may mix regardless of affiliation. OR Plays on your non- [Bor] ship; ship, crew and ship's Away Teams lose affiliation and become [Non].
I'd just delete the first clause because that's only for a special format game and a format can just establish that as a rule.

I'm not sure it's worth the errata though because other than enabling tricks like the Kyrian thing you described, the card would be pretty useless.

The abusive part of the card (i.e. slowing down opponent by making their people keep losing affiliation) is the only thing that makes it worth a card play and I don't want to bring that back. We already have Barclay Transporter Phobia if we want this kind of NPE.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#544113
i wonder if supernova becomes OP, especially when the game takes longer. But I chill, I am not in playtesting, if it really becomes OP, it will be in my deck :P

is there a time frame for returning errata until they are available in tournaments? also 1 week?

i wish for 2 weeks, but life is not perfect you never get exactly what you want. except potatoes. currently cooking potatoes. potatoes are great :)

Note: in case you no longer find so many spelling/grammar error... its not based on my skills, its Grammarly :)
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
Grand Nagus
Donor
2E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
2E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2020
#544120
Mr.Sloan wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:53 pm i wish for 2 weeks, but life is not perfect you never get exactly what you want. except potatoes. currently cooking potatoes. potatoes are great :)
Image
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By commdecker (Matthew Zinno)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
President
Community Contributor
#545012
I still think "Need With a Starship" needs to be banned, because of its use in armada decks. "My armada gets bigger, or you can't get away from it." Yeah, that kind of "Heads I win, tails you lose" choice is an NPE.
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