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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#551678
Spectre9 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:46 am I think perhaps the solution is to come up with a fun anti NPE format.
Except that wouldn't solve the issue posted at the beginning - the problem is that ratings points are hard to keep past a certain point, and some folks would like to play the events without risking losing score.

The catch is that "it's hard to keep high Elo" is kind of the *point* - it's a measure of how likely you are to win a game. To grab some examples off the wiki - two players at the same rating (say, 1500 vs 1500) should split their games over time 50/50. Equal skill, so it's basically a coin toss. A player who is 366 points over their opponent (say, 1866 vs 1500) should be winning 90% of their games. (Remember, Elo isn't a score, it's a prediction of skill.) If the player only wins 80% of those games, the score is *supposed* to go down to 1740, because Elo math says that 240 points difference equates to an 80/20 split.

Magic got rid of Elo a decade ago for exactly these reasons - high ranking players who stopped showing up to smaller events in order to protect their rating, which ended up locking out new players.
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By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
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2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2019
#551683
SudenKapala wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:09 pm I like having a rating; but much more, I like earning achievements, and while I think those two are tied ATM, I'd not like to see achievements go out the window for me (as a low-level player).
From my perspective, Suden's got it: achievements are personally more motivating than ratings points, and IMO I wish they weren't linked.

A zero-sum ratings system like ELO just isn't a very healthy way to encourage play. I know that there are players who love it, but I find those players often burn out.

I'd love if we could move to an inflationary ratings system that would only go up when you play (the amount of upward progress would depend on how well you do), but would decay if you didn't play. But even that probably wouldn't be as healthy as just letting achievements be the main (only) reason why people play. Probably the easiest solution to this perennial problem is just unlinking achievements from rated events.*

*I know the argument against unlinking the two is that they need to be linked for people to take achievements seriously. I think that getting people to play is more important than getting people to take achievements seriously.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
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2E World Top 16 2019
Nemesis
2E German National Champion 2020
#551688
Don't y'all think you're getting a little too precious about this?

Just play the fucking game!
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551689
monty42 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:04 pm Don't y'all think you're getting a little too precious about this?

Just play the fucking game!
Sure. I'll play the same old busted cutthroat only-tier-one-deck-dont-ever-try-anything-new game. It's not like I don't know how to play that way.

But when it's a binary choice of old and busted cutthroat or not playing at all, the latter option holds appeal because the former is only so "fun" for so long.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
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2E World Top 16 2019
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2E German National Champion 2020
#551707
Armus wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:09 pm
monty42 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:04 pm Don't y'all think you're getting a little too precious about this?

Just play the fucking game!
Sure. I'll play the same old busted cutthroat only-tier-one-deck-dont-ever-try-anything-new game. It's not like I don't know how to play that way.

But when it's a binary choice of old and busted cutthroat or not playing at all, the latter option holds appeal because the former is only so "fun" for so long.
Well, if a number on a board somewhere really has that much of an influence on your enjoyment of the game,... then I'll leave it to you to finish this sentence.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551709
monty42 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:17 pm
Armus wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:09 pm
monty42 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:04 pm Don't y'all think you're getting a little too precious about this?

Just play the fucking game!
Sure. I'll play the same old busted cutthroat only-tier-one-deck-dont-ever-try-anything-new game. It's not like I don't know how to play that way.

But when it's a binary choice of old and busted cutthroat or not playing at all, the latter option holds appeal because the former is only so "fun" for so long.
Well, if a number on a board somewhere really has that much of an influence on your enjoyment of the game,... then I'll leave it to you to finish this sentence.
You have my point backwards.

It's *others'* importance on the number on the board and their associated deck choices that has an influence on my enjoyment of the game.

There's a certain number of tier one deck types, and if everyone is always playing tier one deck types, then that is a meta that excludes a lot of deck types from even being played because they aren't viable.

I'm old enough to remember things called "locals" where players could come out, try new things, and be in a more relaxed atmosphere. And if one of the local players wanted to be a local legend and always bring the hard stuff, then that local would get a talking to (or the player base would dry up - I've seen instances of both).

Since we're not having many locals these days, either because of COVID or because there just aren't that many players left, if the only thing left is de facto L4 events where everybody brings their cutthroat, there's a significant chunk of the player market that gets left out in the cold.

How that lines up with the stated goal of long-term sustainment of the game is a question I've yet to hear a good answer to.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
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2E World Top 16 2019
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2E German National Champion 2020
#551715
I can of course only speak about the 2E side of this issue but I've been playing in online events almost on a weekly basis since the pandemic started and I have yet to experience the "cutthroat" environment that some here are describing.
In fact the variety of decks I played against in recent months has been an unparalleled experience for me.
Make of that what you will of course but much of what I read here are unfounded accusations by people whom I rarely meet on the battlefield these days.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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#551719
monty42 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:47 pm I can of course only speak about the 2E side of this issue but I've been playing in online events almost on a weekly basis since the pandemic started and I have yet to experience the "cutthroat" environment that some here are describing.
In fact the variety of decks I played against in recent months has been an unparalleled experience for me.
Make of that what you will of course but much of what I read here are unfounded accusations by people whom I rarely meet on the battlefield these days.
Apples and oranges. I've locked ppl out of the game turn 1 in 1e. Can't do that in 2e.

"It's just points on whiteboard" is a narrow-minded view. Those points were a goal that took countless hundreds of hours to achieve and came with sacrifice. Why don't you tell some guys in a local military veterans group to stop wearing their medals for marksmanship, etc bc "it was just something you did years ago" since accomplishments don't mean anything....


...I mean, why record anything if it supposedly doesn't mean anything!?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
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1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#551728
Id be real interested to see what an "Achievements, no ratings" format does to the online meta.

I don't disagree with Kevin's point per se, but why force people to make that choice?

A "causal" format where people can try new decks - and earn Achievements for them- without having to get ROFLstomped by Battle Borg (1e) or Romulan Discard Reman Suicide Squad (2e) or whatever the "fuck you" deck du jour is, might make the online environment more appealing.

Just a thought...
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
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2E World Top 16 2019
Nemesis
2E German National Champion 2020
#551732
Hoss-Drone wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:17 pm Why don't you tell some guys in a local military veterans group to stop wearing their medals for marksmanship, etc bc "it was just something you did years ago" since accomplishments don't mean anything....
While we're talking about comparing apples and oranges, did you honestly just compare people putting their lives on the line fighting for their country to nerds playing a silly card game?
I mean if the importance of the two things is of similar value to you, than it gave me a lot more of an understanding why you started this whole topic.
Man just chill. You're supposed to be doing this for fun.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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#551754
monty42 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:20 pm
Hoss-Drone wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:17 pm Why don't you tell some guys in a local military veterans group to stop wearing their medals for marksmanship, etc bc "it was just something you did years ago" since accomplishments don't mean anything....
While we're talking about comparing apples and oranges, did you honestly just compare people putting their lives on the line fighting for their country to nerds playing a silly card game?
I mean if the importance of the two things is of similar value to you, than it gave me a lot more of an understanding why you started this whole topic.
Man just chill. You're supposed to be doing this for fun.
Notice how I specified marksmanship and not "their purple hearts". Not all things within a thing are equal. But of course that's all deflection to avoid the main point:

You and buddy TK need to stop telling other ppl how to feel about their accomplishments.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
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2E German National Champion 2020
#551760
Hoss-Drone wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:51 pm
monty42 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:20 pm
Hoss-Drone wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:17 pm Why don't you tell some guys in a local military veterans group to stop wearing their medals for marksmanship, etc bc "it was just something you did years ago" since accomplishments don't mean anything....
While we're talking about comparing apples and oranges, did you honestly just compare people putting their lives on the line fighting for their country to nerds playing a silly card game?
I mean if the importance of the two things is of similar value to you, than it gave me a lot more of an understanding why you started this whole topic.
Man just chill. You're supposed to be doing this for fun.
Notice how I specified marksmanship and not "their purple hearts". Not all things within a thing are equal. But of course that's all deflection to avoid the main point:

You and buddy TK need to stop telling other ppl how to feel about their accomplishments.
Dude, I'm sorry to break it to you but the sooner you'll acknowledge that gaining +100 or whatever in a card game that's been dead for 20 years is in fact not an "accomplishment", the closer you might get to actually appreciate the fun the game brings.
Image
Also dubbing me and @bosskamiura "buddies" might suit your narrative but your actually not quite on point there even though I very much respect his efforts organizing the online community.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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#551762
monty42 wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:11 pm

Dude, I'm sorry to break it to you but the sooner you'll acknowledge that gaining +100 or whatever in a card game that's been dead for 20 years is in fact not an "accomplishment", the closer you might get to actually appreciate the fun the game brings.
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Winning against good competition who are also trying to win is something that many consider fun.

Don't tell me how to have fun you condescending pa'tahk.
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By monty42 (Benjamin Liebich)
 - Delta Quadrant
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2E World Top 16 2019
Nemesis
2E German National Champion 2020
#551764
If the pursuit of the ultimate goal diminishes your enjoyment of the actual experience, is it really worth it?
Hoss-Drone wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:27 pm Don't tell me how to have fun you condescending pa'tahk.
Also I'm sure you didn't really mean that.

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