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By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#552633
This has come up a couple times for me in recent games.

Black Hole says:

...End of every turn, destroys all cards here. Also, when countdown would expire, instead destroy an adjacent location and all cards there (left first, then alternating, while possible), then countdown resets....

From the Glossary:
KILLED OR DESTROYED
Cards that are killed or destroyed leave play normally, usually to the discard pile. All personnel aboard a ship or facility when it is destroyed are killed, and all equipment present is destroyed.

From the Rulebook:
ENCOUNTERING DILEMMAS
Most cards seeded under a mission are probably Dilemmas, or are cards that function as Dilemmas. Either way, you're in trouble!

After you flip a dilemma face-up during a mission attempt to reveal it, the crew or Away Team begin an encounter with that dilemma. The dilemma is now in play and remains in play until it is overcome, cured, reseeded, discarded, or otherwise removed from the mission's seed cards.

Reminder: Put Discarded Dilemmas Out-of-Play
Remember that discarded dilemmas are not sent to your discard pile like other cards. Discarded dilemmas are placed out-of-play.

So dilemmas under a mission that is destroyed by Black Hole are also destroyed but not discarded.

This is a problem because not only does this place them into the discard pile which means they could possibly end up back into the deck, but also them going to the discard pile means the are now revealed.

Them being revealed could let your opponent know that they might no longer have to fear a second Cytherians or Emergent Life-form having already encountering one. Since missions are also destroyed, they too go into the discard pile.

So my questions are:

1) Am I correct that missions and dilemmas go to the discard pile, and are not removed from play?

2) If so, should this be the case?

I am hesitant to suggest that all things destroyed by the Black Hole are removed from play as that could make the game NPE; as the game might be unrecoverable by your opponent. Even so, Black Hole would have to use a term other than Destroyed to make that work anyway.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
Socialite
#552638
For your question #1 - It's covered by OTF Rule 2:
2. DILEMMA REMOVAL
Any time a dilemma would be placed in a discard pile from play, that dilemma is removed from the game instead. If a card would allow you to seed (or reseed) a dilemma from your discard pile, you may seed (or reseed) your dilemma previously removed from the game instead.
For question #2... I have no strong feelings.
 
By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#552642
What does it even mean to have "half cards" in your drawdeck or hand, anyway?

Let's say I play a Kivas Fajo - Collector, and I happen to draw two Space, do I get to draw an extra card? What if there was only one Space in the three cards I drew?

If I have a Space in my hand, can I use that to "discard one card" from hand to download a ship with Condition Red, or do I need two?
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#552643
patrick wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:38 am What does it even mean to have "half cards" in your drawdeck or hand, anyway?
Doesn't mean anything. It's just for the "two of these count as one Mission towards your six mission cap" part. (And yes, badly written, dumb rule, we know.)
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By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#552655
Sweet \, so the destroyed dilemmas leave the game unseen. That sounds as it should be. The space missions in my discard pile and presumably the missions opponent seeded go to their discard pile. I can live with that.
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Chief Programmer
By eberlems
 - Chief Programmer
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Explorer
#552656
Keiimaster wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:23 pm Sweet \, so the destroyed dilemmas leave the game unseen. That sounds as it should be. The space missions in my discard pile and presumably the missions opponent seeded go to their discard pile. I can live with that.
I wouldn't say unseen.
OPG 7.8 wrote:Players must reveal all cards as they are placed in the discard pile or removed from the game (First Edition, Second Edition, and Tribbles.)
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
Socialite
#552657
Keiimaster wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:23 pm Sweet \, so the destroyed dilemmas leave the game unseen. That sounds as it should be. The space missions in my discard pile and presumably the missions opponent seeded go to their discard pile. I can live with that.
Probably not unseen. Your opponent can look at them to verify they are actually dilemmas you're removing from play.
Edit: and what Markus said.
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By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#552661
Well, ok fair enough. At least they are not clogging up the discard pile, though.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#552702
JeBuS wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:31 pm
Probably not unseen. Your opponent can look at them to verify they are actually dilemmas you're removing from play.
Edit: and what Markus said.
Question: Do i need to seed dilemmas? In sealed when i ran out of dilemmas, i seed personal and stuff.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
Socialite
#552704
They'd be treated as misseeds, and go to the discard pile, as far as I know. But usually in sealed you're not playing OTF, so your dilemmas go to the discard pile, too, right?
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#552723
Keiimaster wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:27 am From the Glossary:
KILLED OR DESTROYED
Cards that are killed or destroyed leave play normally, usually to the discard pile. All personnel aboard a ship or facility when it is destroyed are killed, and all equipment present is destroyed.
Originaly, destroyed = discarded. And in OTF, discarded dilemmas = removed.

Even with the fewer text in the overhauled rule documents i guess its the same. I´d say anything that is discarded and/or removed is shown, as cards are discarded and/or removed one card at a time. also the discard pile has an order. Last thing i knew was noone may look into discard pile, q´s tent... and when it comes to cards removed from play i´d guess you can as they are not part of the play environment. Where all that stuff is specified in the overhauled rule document i don´t know.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
#552745
Keiimaster wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:27 am This is a problem because not only does this place them into the discard pile which means they could possibly end up back into the deck, but also them going to the discard pile means the are now revealed.

Them being revealed could let your opponent know that they might no longer have to fear a second Cytherians or Emergent Life-form having already encountering one. Since missions are also destroyed, they too go into the discard pile.
Thats not a problem, thats fun, interactive, though provoking gameplay. :D
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By Ausgang (Gerald Sieber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E German National Participant 2021
#552751
What puzzles me about that rule, is that dilemmas are removed instead of being discarded, but missions are not. It doesn't come up that often, but I've always understood the reason was to make recycling effects like Regenerate more appealing. Then why aren't missions affected the same way? Or, is there another logic?
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
 -  
2E World Semi-Finalist 2021
Grand Nagus
1E North American Continental Champion 2021
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2021
#552766
My guess is no one thought of it before because Black Hole was banned for so long.
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By Mr.Sloan
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Austrian National Second Runner-Up 2020
#552772
jadziadax8 wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 7:37 am My guess is no one thought of it before because Black Hole was banned for so long.
Jup. THe OTF rule is primarily to not polute the draw deck if regeneration or isomagnetic d. is used.

Yet even without black hole non-playable cards like artifacts destroyed on a ship, ends there.

Not sure whats the simplest solution here. I usually do not use Regenerate but dilemma removal might be important for OTF sealed.
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