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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
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#553476
So I was going back and looking at cards and upon rereading Intuition made me remember a comment about an old dream card someone had made, which might apply here. (I can't remember how old said dream card was; it might have been on Decipher's forums.)
Seeds or plays on table (for free if Deanna Troi in play).
If I somehow get Deanna Troi in play during the seed phase, would Intuition then be a free seed, allowing me to stock an extra seed card?

Or is there some rule that I missed that makes it explicit that such wording only applies to the "plays on table" part and not the "seeds on table" part?
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#553485
My first impression is that it would not work (at least, not in a useful way), because seeding for free is not currently possible. Here is why:

You have to bring a seed deck of no more than 30 cards. If you bring a seed deck of 31 cards, it is an illegal deck.

You might say, "But, during the facility phase, I will use an effect that allows me to seed one of these 31 cards for free!"

But your T.D. will (rightly, as far as I can tell) reply, "Perhaps so, but the game has not yet started, that effect is not yet operative, and I have to judge the legality of your deck based on whether it's legal before the start of the Doorway Phase." Since it's 31 cards, it isn't legal.

Now, you could get around this by bringing a seed deck of only 30 cards. One of them would be Intuition. Somehow, you could get Deanna Troi into play. You could now seed Intuition for free -- but it doesn't gain you anything, because you're now seeding 29 seed cards at cost and 1 for free, which still adds up to 30.

I believe it was commdecker who first explained this to me, back when I was arguing that Battle Bridge Door should seed for free. (I still think there is something to that, but probably as a seed phase download instead of a free seed.)
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
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#553508
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:41 am My first impression is that it would not work (at least, not in a useful way), because seeding for free is not currently possible. Here is why:

You have to bring a seed deck of no more than 30 cards. If you bring a seed deck of 31 cards, it is an illegal deck.

You might say, "But, during the facility phase, I will use an effect that allows me to seed one of these 31 cards for free!"

But your T.D. will (rightly, as far as I can tell) reply, "Perhaps so, but the game has not yet started, that effect is not yet operative, and I have to judge the legality of your deck based on whether it's legal before the start of the Doorway Phase." Since it's 31 cards, it isn't legal.
Ah, all right. Just checking. That makes sense.

Also, as for the three cards linked above, two of those (the Treaties) explicitly state "plays for free" to get around this question. Only Hostage Trade doesn't specify "plays".
AllenGould wrote:All cards seed "for free". None of them use your regular card play. ;)
That wasn't what I was getting at and you know it. :P
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#553512
nobthehobbit wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:48 pm
AllenGould wrote:All cards seed "for free". None of them use your regular card play. ;)
That wasn't what I was getting at and you know it. :P
But it's the legit answer - "seeds for free" is as meaningless as "draw for free", "beam for free", or "attempt for free".
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By pfti (Jon Carter)
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2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2019
1E American National Champion 2020
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#553514
Arguing on the boards.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
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#553515
AllenGould wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 8:08 pm
nobthehobbit wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:48 pm
AllenGould wrote:All cards seed "for free". None of them use your regular card play. ;)
That wasn't what I was getting at and you know it. :P
But it's the legit answer - "seeds for free" is as meaningless as "draw for free", "beam for free", or "attempt for free".
As a game text term, sure, but it does have a meaning in the rules (in the context of deckbuilding, of course).
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By pfti (Jon Carter)
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#553516
I think it would need text that says "you may download this during the seed phase" would be the cleanest way to achieve that goal
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By JeBuS (Brian S)
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#553517
Look at the wording for Sites in the rulebook. There's your precedent.
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#553548
JeBuS wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:21 pm Look at the wording for Sites in the rulebook. There's your precedent.
Yeah, but that's *really* stupid wording. :)

edit: specifically, it's stupid because it's Decipher doing it's usual "why explain things properly when we can just modify old rules". Missions seed "for free" because they used to be part of the 30 seed cards. But instead of just making them their own place, they decided to still kinda-but-not-really count them as seed cards - except there's *zero* reason why your six sites and six missions should be included in seed cards. If you could add additional sites or missions to your 30 seed cards, then saying "you get six for free" makes some amount of sense. But you can't, so they're no more free than all those Q-icon cards in your Flash side deck. :)
Last edited by AllenGould on Sun May 09, 2021 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
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#553550
The question's asked and answered: since it's not a free seed absent any other factors, it's an illegal deck if you try.

Still, might it be interesting design space to play around in, have cards that specifically seed for free by their own game text and don't count against the 30-card limit like Missions and Sites?
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#553557
nobthehobbit wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:36 pm Still, might it be interesting design space to play around in, have cards that specifically seed for free by their own game text and don't count against the 30-card limit like Missions and Sites?
Not really - how do you balance a card that is literally no cost to play in any deck that could use it, and guaranteed to be on the table turn 0?

We can take a lesson from our mage friends on the waterfront - they did their take on this mechanic last year, and it was so broken they had cards with that ability banned before release day, and then eventually had to errata the *entire mechanic*.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
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#553569
Oh, it would take a lot of playtesting to see if it even could be balanced, and might have to be permanently left on the cutting room floor.

It would just be neat if it could be made to work without breaking the game.

EDIT: Given the resources at the CC's disposal, and given Wizards' experience with it, I agree that it probably wouldn't be worth the attempt, given the likelihood of failure. But it'd be neat if it did work.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#553615
AllenGould wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:47 pm
nobthehobbit wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:36 pm Still, might it be interesting design space to play around in, have cards that specifically seed for free by their own game text and don't count against the 30-card limit like Missions and Sites?
Not really - how do you balance a card that is literally no cost to play in any deck that could use it, and guaranteed to be on the table turn 0?
That's easy. Add other costs! e.g.
Seeds (for free) on table during Doorway Phase; lose points. You get [some benefit.] You may not seed or play ships or facilities. [-10]
This is literally no cost to play in any deck that can use it, it's guaranteed to be on the table Turn 0, but I also start the game 10 points in the hole and am not allowed to use two FAIRLY important card types. Unless the benefit is "you win automatically," the number of decks I would even consider putting this card in is very short.

On a more practical level, here's my pitch from years ago, when I was advocating for a free BBD:
[Inc] Emergency Saucer Separation
Seeds (for free) on table during Doorway Phase. You may download Battle Bridge Door. Your tactics showing positive ATTACK bonuses are nullified and may not be played as damage markers.
Players not currently running BBD would use this. Players who are already on the hunt, though, would not.

Seed/play costs are just one dial, and every card has plenty of other dials to twist.
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