This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#555624
I think the baseline list should be Raise the Stakes plus all of the [Ref] cards that are now OTF Rules, so by that definition the list will never be zero.

Beyond that, I'm less concerned about the size of the list itself than I am about the process used to evaluate cards to go on the list as well as cards already on the list.

Some of these cards have been on the list for almost a decade. Is anybody doing a re-look? I mean, the game is MUCH different now than it was in 2012. Are we sure that cards that were banned 9 years ago still need to be banned today?

As long as somebody (balance team?) is asking those questions, then the size of the list is less of a concern.

:twocents:

PS: Looking at the current list, I see about 3-4 cards that could probably come off without breaking the game, but that's just my subjective opinion.
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By SudenKapala (Suden Käpälä)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#555625
Haven't read everything, but I skimmed a few very good replies.

A ban list for the sakes of Open vs. OTF rules is completely legit. :twocents:

Do not shut the door on my local play group and the (possibly many) others out there who might want to benefit from the vintage / official / original rules, however they might see them. Diversity in formats is a plus, in a game which cannot afford to alienate anybody.

(Imagine coming here as a casual player, after tentatively unpacking your cards after a decade, and finding your way of playing has been put out with the trash. Boxes might be taped closed again. Chances of eventually joining OP fray, shot.)

So, don't change [Ref] cards. (Raise the stakes, I'm dualistic about. I'll abstain on that one.)

:cheersL:
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Architect
Community Contributor
#555756
This is what I want to write in the Rulebook someday:
BANNED CARDS
All cards with the [Ref] icon are banned. Banned cards may not be included in your deck.

SIDEBAR: OPEN FORMAT: NO BANNED CARDS
There are no banned cards in Open format.
The end. Nice, clean, bright-line rule, no list required. (And if you need to ban the overpowered flavor du jour, you could put a [Ref] icon on it!)

This presumes the redevelopment of Raise The Stakes to do something ante-ish but not unlawful or mortally terrifying.
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By Boffo97 (Dave Hines)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Moderator
#555765
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:43 pm (And if you need to ban the overpowered flavor du jour, you could put a [Ref] icon on it!)
The problem I see there is that you could dramatically affect Open by making the problematic cards more easily playable/downloadable by cards like Q The Referee and Tribunal of Q.
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By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#555796
Boffo97 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:36 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:43 pm (And if you need to ban the overpowered flavor du jour, you could put a [Ref] icon on it!)
The problem I see there is that you could dramatically affect Open by making the problematic cards more easily playable/downloadable by cards like Q The Referee and Tribunal of Q.
Once again, Open has no governing body. It is neither Official, nor any longer for Tournament play (nor ratings connected), therefore it can do whatever it wants with the cards. I think we really need to stop worrying about how a change in OTF effects Open.

Change my mind!
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#555797
Keiimaster wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 pm
Boffo97 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:36 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:43 pm (And if you need to ban the overpowered flavor du jour, you could put a [Ref] icon on it!)
The problem I see there is that you could dramatically affect Open by making the problematic cards more easily playable/downloadable by cards like Q The Referee and Tribunal of Q.
Once again, Open has no governing body. It is neither Official, nor any longer for Tournament play (nor ratings connected), therefore it can do whatever it wants with the cards. I think we really need to stop worrying about how a change in OTF effects Open.

Change my mind!
Um.... last I looked, Open was still a thing and still counted for ratings points and achievements.

No need to change your opinion if you're wrong on the facts. :wink:
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By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#555798
Armus wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:33 pm
Keiimaster wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 pm
Boffo97 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:36 pm

The problem I see there is that you could dramatically affect Open by making the problematic cards more easily playable/downloadable by cards like Q The Referee and Tribunal of Q.
Once again, Open has no governing body. It is neither Official, nor any longer for Tournament play (nor ratings connected), therefore it can do whatever it wants with the cards. I think we really need to stop worrying about how a change in OTF effects Open.

Change my mind!
Um.... last I looked, Open was still a thing and still counted for ratings points and achievements.

No need to change your opinion if you're wrong on the facts. :wink:
I do stand corrected. @Armus quoted before I could edit so I'll recant here.

@pfti is running an OTSD Sealed event in July that is Open not OTF and is ratings connected, so I was mistaken.

I still submit that Official Tournament Format is the only official format and anything else is an UTF (Unofficial Tournament Format) and a such should have to deal whatever OTF makes official.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#555800
patrick wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:10 am I feel like there should be a difference in how errata to physical cards are treated compared to errata to virtual cards. Do whatever is necessary to a virtual cards, but errata to physical cards should remain true-ish to how the card was originally intended, so you can just say "actually, it plays slightly different now" if you encounter an opponent who is unaware. (So not like Q for example.)

For virtual cards this doesn't matter. Players can just reprint the card, no problems. Way fewer players will be nostalgic about how the card used to work.

(Of course this doesn't really apply to online only players.)
Agreed.

Also justifications for the ban need to be done as well. Just because it was a boogeyman-type card back in the 90s or early 2000s doesn't mean it is now since the primary format people play in tournaments is in OTF.

A card should only be errata'd if it will stay true to the intent of the card. Unfortunately many many many cards have been errata'd already that butcher a card to the point that its unplayable and worthless.
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By Smiley (Cristoffer Wiker)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#555842
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:43 pm This is what I want to write in the Rulebook someday:
BANNED CARDS
All cards with the [Ref] icon are banned. Banned cards may not be included in your deck.

SIDEBAR: OPEN FORMAT: NO BANNED CARDS
There are no banned cards in Open format.

The rules should never talk about formats. So what pool of cards you use should not be relevant for the rules. Even cards like Raise the Stakes should be explained in them (but located under rules that no longer being used in any format or similar).
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#555851
HoodieDM wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:00 am I want Open to not include errata. All broken combos should be viable in Open IMO.
I seem to recall there's some group playing under "as printed" rules. And that's fine, but I don't know if that's something that's feasible to support officially if we *also* want a low/no- card OTF ban list.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#555852
HoodieDM wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:00 am I want Open to not include errata. All broken combos should be viable in Open IMO.
For in-person physical cards that's easy - just play as printed.

For broken CC stuff it's a bit harder since the pre-errata versions of cards are no longer resident in the database. Ditto online play.
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By eberlems
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Explorer
#555857
Armus wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:14 am
HoodieDM wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:00 am I want Open to not include errata. All broken combos should be viable in Open IMO.
For in-person physical cards that's easy - just play as printed.

For broken CC stuff it's a bit harder since the pre-errata versions of cards are no longer resident in the database. Ditto online play.
The first version and the last versions are available on trekcc.
e.g. Five-Year Mission now: Image before:Image
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#555858
Yeah the image is still there but you can't find the pre-errata versions in the database (or the Lackey file) unless I missed something, which given how much of a computer grognard I am, is entirely possible.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#555859
AllenGould wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:14 am
HoodieDM wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:00 am I want Open to not include errata. All broken combos should be viable in Open IMO.
I seem to recall there's some group playing under "as printed" rules. And that's fine, but I don't know if that's something that's feasible to support officially if we *also* want a low/no- card OTF ban list.
Personally, I like the idea of supporting it akin to Magic with Vintage/Legacy/Modern.


The CCs main focus is OTF - as it should be, really. But Open should be the vintage equivalent. Nothing's broken because everything is broken.

Now as to "how", my "simple" fix would be that any card that was erratic gets a card number change, adding "E" to the card number. (We already do similar in the art, such as the Errata versions of Black Hole and DNA Metamorphosis for example have Errata where the card number is.)

Only the versions are allowed on OTF, but the originals are still allowed in "Printed or "Open"
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