Discuss all of your questions, concerns, comments and ideas about Second Edition.
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By Danny (Daniel Giddings)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Wanderer
2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2019
2E British National Second Runner-Up 2019
#558303
Armus wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:52 pmNot all players choose (or are allowed to) share their experiences on the site.

Both that players choose not to (or are not allowed to) share their decks is unfortunate, however, pandemic aside, one can't help but think that, if this were a decent card, at least one person still in the CC's good graces would've played this in an event and posted something about it.

It's that lack of any data that makes me think putting it on the watch list for being OP is a little hasty. (Your secondary-source "I heard a story about it..." is literally the only thing I've read about it being played.)
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#558304
Danny wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:20 pm
Armus wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:52 pmNot all players choose (or are allowed to) share their experiences on the site.

Both that players choose not to (or are not allowed to) share their decks is unfortunate, however, pandemic aside, one can't help but think that, if this were a decent card, at least one person still in the CC's good graces would've played this in an event and posted something about it.

It's that lack of any data that makes me think putting it on the watch list for being OP is a little hasty. (Your secondary-source "I heard a story about it..." is literally the only thing I've read about it being played.)
I heard a story about the final version.

I'm very well-versed first hand on what that card *could have* been based on extensive playtesting last year. I know what I'm talking about when I say it could get real stupid real quick if you tried to "upgrade" it.
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Second Edition Art Manager
By The Prefect (Michael Shea)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Prefect
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2021
#558309
GooeyChewie wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:34 pm
jadziadax8 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:03 am How do you all feel about buffing unplayed cards?
I'm not super keen on it. At the same time, if that's something we were going to do, I'd want it to be done as an expansion, with full cycle playtesting and everything, just with the Balance Team rather than Design redesigning the cards. No half measures, either go for the re-balance or don't do it at all.
Seconded. Trying to increase a card's power curve is dangerous territory. It requires full testing.

Speaking generally and theoretically, there are several reasons I can think of why any card doesn't see play:
  • Under-powered
  • Over-costed
  • Not fun to play
  • Hard to design a deck around
  • Hasn't found the right deck yet
Some of these problems can be fixed through "balance" and some of them would require a total redesign - which a Balance Team shouldn't be doing, IMO. What we need to determine is which of these problems is keeping Bar Brawl from seeing verifiable play, in order to make sure we're not offering a solution to the wrong problem.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#558311
Bar Brawl - even in its current "under-powered" form - is a "win more" card. Played optimally, all it does is provide its owner with an opportunity to make their opponent choose between losing now, or losing in a turn or two.

Rather than try to engineer a "less underpowered" or "more fun to play" card from the flawed premise that a "win more" card can be made more fun to play, it should be left alone, and Design should take a note on not making "win more" cards in future expansions. This card should never have been made to begin with.

Which is a shame, because card text aside, I love the idea of a "bar fight" card that could allow both players to interact in a meaningful, and even fun way.

However, the card as it is missed the mark, and to hit the mark would effectively require a whole new card.
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Second Edition Art Manager
By The Prefect (Michael Shea)
 - Second Edition Art Manager
 -  
Prefect
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2021
#558312
Without getting into a debate on Bar Brawl - which I have no desire at all to do - I would agree in principle that if a card as designed is "no fun" or "missed the mark" for reasons unrelated to cost or simple text-fixes, then that card is something a Balance Team should not try to fix. Balance Team should not be in the business redesigning cards to that degree.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#558356
Armus wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:52 pm
Danny wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:10 pm
StateofSTCCG wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:43 pmBar Brawl is a very dangerous card at the right time. I still think that's a card that needs to be on the watchlist.

Doesn't look like anyone's found the right time to play it in the last eleven months. That being the case, maybe calling for it to be on the watch-list is a touch premature.
It made an appearance at Vegas last year and created a big 'win more' NPE from what I've heard. Not all players choose (or are allowed to) share their experiences on the site.

At the very least any adjustment would need to clear a pretty high "how is this not [more of a] win more card?" Bar IMO.
I wish I could've made Vegas. I heard it was a blast!

Most people who still play this game either talk about the game on discord or FB pages. CC has done nothing in the past 3+ years to fix this problem. :thumbsdown:
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#558357
The Prefect wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:38 pm Without getting into a debate on Bar Brawl - which I have no desire at all to do - I would agree in principle that if a card as designed is "no fun" or "missed the mark" for reasons unrelated to cost or simple text-fixes, then that card is something a Balance Team should not try to fix. Balance Team should not be in the business redesigning cards to that degree.
Their's cards that this errata team needs to fix before fixing cards that see no play. Fix the Maquis absue that would be a good start.
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
2E World Semi-Finalist 2019
Grand Nagus
#558373
@Armus

I have to protest. Tjark is not a dictator. He has a plan and listens to everyone. And I am 99% sure Steve did not "annoy" him. I do not know what caused the dismissal of Steve and establishing the "Balance Team". But I really am opposed to that decision. Steve is one of the best players ever and he knows, what he is talking about. And he did a great job, as Trump would say :) .

Regarding Corbett I have mixed feelings. He carries his heart on the tongue to use a German figure of speech :) . He is polarizing on purpose and very controversial. But in doubt of the accused I would grant him a second chance if I would've been in charge.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#558377
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:32 am @Armus

I have to protest. Tjark is not a dictator. He has a plan and listens to everyone.
Protest all you want. My personal experience in the last 8 months says otherwise.
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
2E World Semi-Finalist 2019
Grand Nagus
#558384
Dear Armus... Did you talk to him in person only at least once?? Tjark reißt sich den Arsch auf für dieses bekloppte, nicht mehr zu rettende 2E... He has family and work and he still contributes so much of his free time to this silly game. You apologize every action hate-Corbett has made and do not give Tjark a chance? This is what I call hypocracie... Sorry.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#558390
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:10 pm Dear Armus... Did you talk to him in person only at least once?? Tjark reißt sich den Arsch auf für dieses bekloppte, nicht mehr zu rettende 2E... He has family and work and he still contributes so much of his free time to this silly game. You apologize every action hate-Corbett has made and do not give Tjark a chance? This is what I call hypocracie... Sorry.
I have spoken with Tjark actually. I see no reason to make the content of our conversations public.

At this point things are what they are.
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By Danny (Daniel Giddings)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Wanderer
2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2019
2E British National Second Runner-Up 2019
#558441
StateofSTCCG wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:52 am Any update on the next 2E set?

Does this fall under the Balance Team's remit?
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#558625
They should know when it these things come out. They're "balancing" this game aren't they?
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By Danny (Daniel Giddings)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Wanderer
2E European Continental Quarter-Finalist 2019
2E British National Second Runner-Up 2019
#558628
StateofSTCCG wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:27 am They should know when it these things come out.

They may well do, but is it their job to communicate it? I mean, Art and Rules also know what things are in the pipeline, but you haven't asked them.

Why not ask Ross? - he has a thread about updates somewhere.

StateofSTCCG wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:27 amThey're "balancing" this game aren't they?

Well, yes, but if you want to use that argument, they tend to deal with cards that have been released and have made an impact (one way or the other) on the game. Upcoming cards fall outside that category.

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