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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
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#564429
Armus wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:20 pm
jadziadax8 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:16 pm Sorry for the thread necro, but I was thinking about Zaldan this morning and was wondering if anyone had ever made a complete list of dilemmas like it which whiff due to lack of target. I seem to recall Center of Attention and Cardassian Trap being on the list.
Berserk Changeling too, though in practical terms I've never seen it whiff for lack of target.
I have!

Empathic Echo is another.

Some of these dilemmas were clearly not designed for this rule. The "whiffs for lack of target" rule is actually relatively new; it showed up in the year 2000. Prior to that, Zaldan was actually a wall, even if you attempted with zero Diplomacy. This December 1999 DRG illustrates the point.

As far as I can tell, Decipher changed the rule because the relatively new [Car] affiliation was (ironically) getting perma-walled by Cardassian Trap (because no non-Cardassians were in the deck). Given Decipher's attitude toward errata, it's not particularly surprising that, rather than change the card text, they changed the whole rule and the behavior of several cards to make it "work" again.

I do wonder sometimes whether it would be a good idea to go back to the 1995-2000 rule. But that may just be my 1995 bias showing.
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
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2E World Semi-Finalist 2021
Grand Nagus
1E North American Continental Champion 2021
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2021
#564438
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:03 pm I do wonder sometimes whether it would be a good idea to go back to the 1995-2000 rule. But that may just be my 1995 bias showing.
I hate the fact that dilemmas that say Unless aren't really Unless dilemmas, so I would be here with you. I would support clarifying errata to Cardassian Trap to allow the rule to be reverted.
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By Orbin (James Monsebroten)
 - Delta Quadrant
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1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2021
#564439
jadziadax8 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:48 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:03 pm I do wonder sometimes whether it would be a good idea to go back to the 1995-2000 rule. But that may just be my 1995 bias showing.
I hate the fact that dilemmas that say Unless aren't really Unless dilemmas, so I would be here with you. I would support clarifying errata to Cardassian Trap to allow the rule to be reverted.
:thumbsup:

-James M
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#564440
jadziadax8 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:48 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:03 pm I do wonder sometimes whether it would be a good idea to go back to the 1995-2000 rule. But that may just be my 1995 bias showing.
I hate the fact that dilemmas that say Unless aren't really Unless dilemmas, so I would be here with you. I would support clarifying errata to Cardassian Trap to allow the rule to be reverted.
Or at this point, tell the [Car] player to throw a token [NA] personnel in there to be a sacrificial lamb.

I hear Weyoun 6 is good at that....
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#564451
Over all, I think a (presumably) minor rewording on Cardassian Trap is better then all these dilemmas with hidden text that is inconsistent with how you would expect it to work on first glance.

Would something as simple as adding: "Discard dilemma if there are no non-Cardassians present." fix it?
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#564452
boromirofborg wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:37 pm Over all, I think a (presumably) minor rewording on Cardassian Trap is better then all these dilemmas with hidden text that is inconsistent with how you would expect it to work on first glance.

Would something as simple as adding: "Discard dilemma if there are no non-Cardassians present." fix it?
Easier than that, even.
Unless Empathy present, opponent captures oOne unique, non-Cardassian personnel from you (random selection) and places it on their side as a captive, along with trap is captured. Nullify with Empathy.
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Executive Officer
By jadziadax8 (Maggie Geppert)
 - Executive Officer
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2E World Semi-Finalist 2021
Grand Nagus
1E North American Continental Champion 2021
2E North American Continental Quarter-Finalist 2021
#564455
Armus wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:53 pm
jadziadax8 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:48 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:03 pm I do wonder sometimes whether it would be a good idea to go back to the 1995-2000 rule. But that may just be my 1995 bias showing.
I hate the fact that dilemmas that say Unless aren't really Unless dilemmas, so I would be here with you. I would support clarifying errata to Cardassian Trap to allow the rule to be reverted.
Or at this point, tell the [Car] player to throw a token [NA] personnel in there to be a sacrificial lamb.

I hear Weyoun 6 is good at that....
Also a valid strategy.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#564459
I'm also less sympathetic to a late 1990s ruling in the modern context of OTF when there's at most 2 Cardassian Traps across 6 missions.

There's a Chesterton's gate that needs torn down.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#564460
Thought Fire was the most notable "target" of this change in the dilemma rules. Prior to 2000, Thought Fire lockout decks were a thing, since if The Traveler was affecting you it turned into a wall requiring Empathy. The usual trick (discovered by Tufts ca. 1997) was to combo Thought Fire and Brain Drain. Brain Drain got most of the hate... Decipher's first change was to prevent Interrupts between dilemmas, and Kukalaka and Writ both specifically call out Brain Drain. These cards were among a suite of bullets given to '99 Worlds participants in advance of Rules of Acquisition releasing. So with all of this, nobody was expecting a Thought Fire deck... until on Day Two Drake pulled out a Return Orb to Bajor/Mysterious Orb/Thought Fire lockout.

After the rules change we've been discussing, avoiding a Thought Fire lockout became trivial: just don't attempt the mission with anybody whose CUNNING + INTEGRITY is less than 12, and it disappears for lack of a target.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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#564461
Armus wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:20 pm Berserk Changeling too, though in practical terms I've never seen it whiff for lack of target.
It did happen rarely back in the Dominion days. BC was really good, Changelings were no slouches, so every once in a while they'd get a freebie. (Wanna say usually by having their helpers get whacked the first time, and then you sent the gooballs through to clear it.)

My memory matches James in that [Car] getting completely rinsed by Cardassian Trap (which was still awfully good against the rest of the field too - stupid Fed-specific skills) was what created the original rules change.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#564469
Rachmaninoff wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:55 pm Thought Fire was the most notable "target" of this change in the dilemma rules. Prior to 2000, Thought Fire lockout decks were a thing, since if The Traveler was affecting you it turned into a wall requiring Empathy. The usual trick (discovered by Tufts ca. 1997) was to combo Thought Fire and Brain Drain. Brain Drain got most of the hate... Decipher's first change was to prevent Interrupts between dilemmas, and Kukalaka and Writ both specifically call out Brain Drain. These cards were among a suite of bullets given to '99 Worlds participants in advance of Rules of Acquisition releasing. So with all of this, nobody was expecting a Thought Fire deck... until on Day Two Drake pulled out a Return Orb to Bajor/Mysterious Orb/Thought Fire lockout.

After the rules change we've been discussing, avoiding a Thought Fire lockout became trivial: just don't attempt the mission with anybody whose CUNNING + INTEGRITY is less than 12, and it disappears for lack of a target.
Aha! The dawn breaks!

This makes more sense of the timing than anything else, and also finally explains to me why Decipher quite suddenly changed course on interrupts between dilemmas around this time.

EDIT: How'd Drake's deck work? I don't see what work Mysterious Orb is doing there.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#564473
Use the Orbs to steal all their Empathy personnel. 8)

Edit: I remember working on the deck with him and James Monsebroten the night before... I wanted him to go full Macbeth and name the deck "Mysterious Orbs, toil and trouble / Thought Fire burns while Traveler doubles" but Jason settled on "A Really Bad Orb Experience."
Last edited by Rachmaninoff on Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#564485
If I remember right, he had 3 scattered throughout the Bajor region... these could also be useful if you wanted to grab a key personnel for any other reason. (I can't recall if Alas, Poor Queen was in his Tent or not, but it would have fit right in.)
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