This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#424900
But, the cards on recovered never left play. They were placed on the incident, you fetched a ship, they were placed on the ship. They left the spaceline for the duration of a download, they never left play.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#425055
Dhash1221 wrote:my biggest question is how do I initiate battle as Borg
Eliminate Starship is the "traditional" answer.
Gowron of Borg is the more popular one.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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Socialite
#564488
When a ship is destroyed, then Recovered used, at any point are the personnel aboard considered 'killed'? It seems like another weird timing thing exists with Valuable Prisoner. Can I target the Borg Queen with VP, then capture her when the ship is destroyed? Or is she somehow saved, despite the rules saying that when a ship is destroyed, all personnel aboard are killed?
if a ship is destroyed, all personnel aboard are killed and discarded
So here's my reasoning:
For a 'just' response to trigger, the thing has to have already happened. Therefore, the ship is destroyed. Rules say everything aboard is killed as part of destruction. But, VP triggers before the kill. So VP is a response that must happen just before ship destruction. So, VP slides in to nab the Queen before Recovered sees the ship has reached the 'destroyed' state.
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By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#564489
JeBuS wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:52 pm When a ship is destroyed, then Recovered used, at any point are the personnel aboard considered 'killed'? It seems like another weird timing thing exists with Valuable Prisoner. Can I target the Borg Queen with VP, then capture her when the ship is destroyed? Or is she somehow saved, despite the rules saying that when a ship is destroyed, all personnel aboard are killed?
if a ship is destroyed, all personnel aboard are killed and discarded
So here's my reasoning:
For a 'just' response to trigger, the thing has to have already happened. Therefore, the ship is destroyed. Rules say everything aboard is killed as part of destruction. But, VP triggers before the kill. So VP is a response that must happen just before ship destruction. So, VP slides in to nab the Queen before Recovered sees the ship has reached the 'destroyed' state.
Sadly, no. In order for for Recovered to even work, the 'just' has to supersede the 'all personnel aboard are killed and discarded.' which means they therefore must not be killed, so VP won't be able to trigger. Since card text trumps rules, currently, that is how this works; however, the rules do seem to be at odds with Recovered's text. @BCSWowbagger thoughts?
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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Socialite
#564490
Keiimaster wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:40 pm
JeBuS wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:52 pm When a ship is destroyed, then Recovered used, at any point are the personnel aboard considered 'killed'? It seems like another weird timing thing exists with Valuable Prisoner. Can I target the Borg Queen with VP, then capture her when the ship is destroyed? Or is she somehow saved, despite the rules saying that when a ship is destroyed, all personnel aboard are killed?
if a ship is destroyed, all personnel aboard are killed and discarded
So here's my reasoning:
For a 'just' response to trigger, the thing has to have already happened. Therefore, the ship is destroyed. Rules say everything aboard is killed as part of destruction. But, VP triggers before the kill. So VP is a response that must happen just before ship destruction. So, VP slides in to nab the Queen before Recovered sees the ship has reached the 'destroyed' state.
Sadly, no. In order for for Recovered to even work, the 'just' has to supersede the 'all personnel aboard are killed and discarded.' which means they therefore must not be killed, so VP won't be able to trigger. Since card text trumps rules, currently, that is how this works; however, the rules do seem to be at odds with Recovered's text. @BCSWowbagger thoughts?
Recovered doesn't say that it prevents death or destruction. It simply says to place cards here, then there. And as I said, VP would trigger before ship destruction, since it must happen before a personnel is killed, whereas Recovered must happen after a ship is destroyed.
Last edited by JeBuS on Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#564491
JeBuS wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:45 pm
Keiimaster wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:40 pm
JeBuS wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:52 pm When a ship is destroyed, then Recovered used, at any point are the personnel aboard considered 'killed'? It seems like another weird timing thing exists with Valuable Prisoner. Can I target the Borg Queen with VP, then capture her when the ship is destroyed? Or is she somehow saved, despite the rules saying that when a ship is destroyed, all personnel aboard are killed? The point I am trying to make is even without VP in the picture, if they were killed and discarded, they couldn't be moved, and since they can, it implies they are not killed thus VP can't trigger. I am also not saying this is right or wrong, just saying that currently that is how it works. Maybe there is room for clarification, even if there isn't room for such clarification on the card, lol.


So here's my reasoning:
For a 'just' response to trigger, the thing has to have already happened. Therefore, the ship is destroyed. Rules say everything aboard is killed as part of destruction. But, VP triggers before the kill. So VP is a response that must happen just before ship destruction. So, VP slides in to nab the Queen before Recovered sees the ship has reached the 'destroyed' state.
Sadly, no. In order for for Recovered to even work, the 'just' has to supersede the 'all personnel aboard are killed and discarded.' which means they therefore must not be killed, so VP won't be able to trigger. Since card text trumps rules, currently, that is how this works; however, the rules do seem to be at odds with Recovered's text. @BCSWowbagger thoughts?
Recovered doesn't say that it prevents death or destruction. It simply says to place cards here, then there.
True, however how could it place personnel there if the rules already made them killed and discarded....they would no longer be in play to move to recovered. I'll agree that it only implies they are prevented from being killed since how else could they be moved?
Last edited by Keiimaster on Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
 -  
Socialite
#564492
Keiimaster wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:49 pm
JeBuS wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:45 pm
Keiimaster wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:40 pm

Sadly, no. In order for for Recovered to even work, the 'just' has to supersede the 'all personnel aboard are killed and discarded.' which means they therefore must not be killed, so VP won't be able to trigger. Since card text trumps rules, currently, that is how this works; however, the rules do seem to be at odds with Recovered's text. @BCSWowbagger thoughts?
Recovered doesn't say that it prevents death or destruction. It simply says to place cards here, then there.
True, however how could it place personnel there if the rules already made them killed and discarded....they would no longer be in play to move to recovered. I'll agree that it only implies they are prevented from being killed since how else could they be moved?
The 'placement' isn't 'movement', so it doesn't have to be supported by outside rules. It's simply providing a different destination for cards that are otherwise supposed to be discarded. The card itself establishes an alternate place for discarded cards to go, then also establishes what happens to them afterwards. At no point does it say it prevents the destruction of the ship. It is, in fact, predicated upon the destruction.
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By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2021
#564493
JeBuS wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:51 pm
Keiimaster wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:49 pm
JeBuS wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:45 pm
Recovered doesn't say that it prevents death or destruction. It simply says to place cards here, then there.
True, however how could it place personnel there if the rules already made them killed and discarded....they would no longer be in play to move to recovered. I'll agree that it only implies they are prevented from being killed since how else could they be moved?
The 'placement' isn't 'movement', so it doesn't have to be supported by outside rules. It's simply providing a different destination for cards that are otherwise supposed to be discarded.
You may having a winning argument; I am simply saying currently, that is not what happens. Hence, why I asked Rules to weigh in.

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