For other non-gameplay topics, especially those related to Star Trek and the Star Trek CCG, non-gameplay surveys, trivia questions and puzzles, constructive commentary and more.
  • 330 posts
  • 1
  • 18
  • 19
  • 20
  • 21
  • 22
User avatar
Achievement Master
By SirRogue
 - Achievement Master
 -  
Emperor
1E Risa Regional Champion 2021
#564827
Gorgo Primus wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:49 am Yeah, why can’t I use Kim or the new Chakotay when playing Equinox? And why do I need three copies of Implant for Holocapture other than that you choose to name the achievement after it? The new [Fut] Chakotay was partially made for Equinox decks and I stopped running Implant at three during testing because I found that for me it was overkill with three Photonic Turncoats et al. These achievements seem arbitrarily strict for no reason. If someone can look at a deck and instantly know “oh, this is clearly a good faith attempt to make a focused X deck” shouldn’t it qualify?

I’m really happy with the choice for what the new achievements should cover, but the way in which their requirements have been set is very disappointing to me. It’d be like coding it so that Relatively decks that include Holograms and Delta Klingon decks that don’t include three copies of Kohlar, Pilgrim Commander don’t qualify for their respective achievements. Like according to the new achievement there has virtually never been a real Equinox deck played before in 2E history because most use Revised personnel or Kim or whatever. The Hologram (holocapture) and Equinox deck lists made for articles by the designer of the new Caretaker cards to showcase the new/improved deck types and offer suggestions for how they should be used don’t qualify for the new achievements released alongside Caretaker. Isn’t that a pretty good sign that something is wrong with how strict these are?

I’d therefore like to respectfully request that the requirement for the Equinox achievement not block the use of [Fut] personnel, and that the Holocapture achievement not specify the number of any of the cards listed so long as you have all of them. The former restriction especially does not reflect how 2E players actually conceptualize or play Equinox.
Thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully detail your perspective, I appreciate your considered comments.

First, regarding the Photonic Turncoats et al, the issue comes down to enforcement. In a video game, the system watches every battle, every action, every happenstance and can catalogue the occurrence of noteworthy circumstance to award achievements when appropriate. As much I would LOVE for that to be possible while playing Star Trek CCG (some day I will make it happen!), the reality is our system can only award achievements based on what is in your deck. And unfortunately, there is not an easy way to, as you say, look at a deck and clearly tell it is a good-faith attempt at such a deck. The only measurement we have to gauge where you are committed to particular strategy is to see how many cards you have in your deck to try and make it happen. With lesser requirements, you could just splash a few cards into a deck for the achievement and never actually attempt the theme or strategy in question. If you are forced to include more cards, we can at least hope you'll try to use some of them. It is not ideal, but it's what we have.

Regarding Equinox, part of the reason there has not yet been an Equinox achievement is because it never actually felt thematic with all the holograms running around. Random [Voy] Treachery folks that might have joined in are one thing, but a crew full of evil alternate Voyager mains throws the theming a bit. Especially with this release, the pool has finally grown large enough that its doable to play a more thematic Equinox deck, a restriction that is actually challenging and, well, achievement-worthy. It felt like a good time to bring this in.

Your points, however, are good ones. Despite the dichotomy, Equinox crew and [Fut] [Voy] holograms is a combination the meta has grown accustomed to when thinking of a standard "Equinox deck." While not a terribly thematic combo, they are mechanically (mostly) all there there has been to work with for some time. In addition, celebrating a new expansion with an achievement in theme with the expansion but limiting use of the new cards isn't much of a celebration. While I don't feel like removing the restriction provides much of a challenge, achievement-wise, it is a more appropriate celebration. So:

In addition to the already published, more restrictive Equinox achievement, we will also be adding a simpler "Equinox Player/Equinox Victor" pair of achievements, that will remove the restriction on [Fut] personnel, more in keeping with the celebration of the set. As a subgroup, it will be a one-off, without iterative levels, but it will be a less restrictive way to play and celebrate the Caretaker release. The new pair will be retroactive to the street legal date of Caretaker, so you can play freely, knowing you'll get this once its instated.

Again, thank you for presenting a thoughtful, respectful argument so I could re-examine how these release achievements were presented.
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#564828
Thanks for responding to community feedback, @SirRogue .

I think your solution strikes a nice balance.

Any chance I can get any more info on the new 1e Director achievement that appears to have been hinted at in the new definition of the "I can run anything" achievement that I mentioned upthread?

Thanks!
User avatar
 
By Gorgo Primus (Benjamin Rostoker)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Grand Nagus
#564829
Well, while I disagree with your arguments, I thank you for offering your compromise and it does make me feel much better about Equinox. I appreciate you taking the time to read, think, respond, and offer a solution to me. Thank you, I appreciate it.

If I may though, it doesn't make thematic sense for the Revised Holograms to be in any deck at all (they were from the future in a one off episode and never interacted with anyone nor had sentience), but this isn't 1E and they were designed to go anywhere they could be played - which is any Hologram deck and any [Voy] deck. In 2E including personnel who meet the play requirements don't negate the theme of the deck just from being 'off' from exactly what is shown on screen. Again, it's the same as the "so Relativity shouldn't be allowed to use any Holograms for their achievement either since they didn't and wouldn't have any in the show?" example - it doesn't matter to 2E design or the players. It isn't even a 'theme deck/story' achievement - it's in the Affiliation category. The only 'theme' of Equinox in 2E is that you have no HQ, no Voyager, and you use Equinox and Nucleogenic cards with only [Fed] with Treachery allowed - and all these are baked into the mechanics of the cards in the game; that is what everyone in 2E thinks of when they think Equinox. In my opinion that should have been the limits of achievement requirements from the start, and am very happy and thankful that you’ve essentially given us that with your compromise. I guess to a 1E player your argument for the original restriction would make sense, but this is 2E and I feel fairly confident saying that that kind of "don't stray too far from being exactly like the show or else" concern isn't how we design or play decks. And since this is a 2E achievement for 2E decks I feel like the 2E approach for 'what is X deck' should be used when making achievements for us. There is no reason why Neelix would be on the USS Enterprise-A but that wouldn't make a [TOS] deck with him in it cease to be [TOS] for us, and I'd be upset if I was told by achievements that I wasn't using a [TOS] deck because I dared to included a [NA] Talaxian in it.

I also don't see why your argument for needing one of each and every Holocapture card and 3 copies of Implant on top of that for the achievement makes sense if the issue is you're worried people will try to cheat the system. If they want to add in 4+ cards to their deck that they don't need or use for this just to cheat the achievement, then asking them to arbitrarily include two more copies of one isn't going to make any difference. All it will do is lock out people who are earnestly trying to play it but use 3 copies of Turncoat instead. It's totally arbitrary and it is frustrating to see both as a player and as someone who designed the cards to allow for that kind of flexibility in deck construction for that archetype.

So again, thank you very much for reading and responding to my post and for offering your compromise. If that is the last word, I am thankful regardless of my preferences on the Holocapture issue. I hope my stating my reasoning for why I still find this result disappointing in terms of Holocapture given what you've written in the context of 2E and the intentions of the designers of these cards doesn't come off as bratty or ungrateful. Nevertheless I felt like I should state them regardless just in case they could change your mind further.
Last edited by Gorgo Primus on Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
 
By Gorgo Primus (Benjamin Rostoker)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Grand Nagus
#564831
Yes, that is why I was explaining why I found his reasoning so alien to me as a 2E player and offered specific examples of how the conception of what is seen as thematic for affiliations in 2E is different than in 1E. I decided that it wouldn't hurt to respectfully explain why it feels so arbitrary and off-putting to me as a 2E player when 2E achievements are programmed with 1E concerns for near-fully faithful Treksense in mind when dealing with non-'theme deck/story' achievements.
User avatar
Second Edition Playtest Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Playtest Manager
 -  
Socialite
Community Contributor
#564843
SirRogue wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:48 pmIn addition to the already published, more restrictive Equinox achievement, we will also be adding a simpler "Equinox Player/Equinox Victor" pair of achievements, that will remove the restriction on [Fut] personnel, more in keeping with the celebration of the set.
Thanks for adding a less restrictive achievement! The achievement-hunting crowd is diverse, so I'm very happy for there to be something for everyone.
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#565815
edgeofhearing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:56 am
SirRogue wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:48 pmIn addition to the already published, more restrictive Equinox achievement, we will also be adding a simpler "Equinox Player/Equinox Victor" pair of achievements, that will remove the restriction on [Fut] personnel, more in keeping with the celebration of the set.
Thanks for adding a less restrictive achievement! The achievement-hunting crowd is diverse, so I'm very happy for there to be something for everyone.
Not everyone....

@SirRogue
Why are all of these achievements limited to "constructed complete"? Hall of Fame is a popular constructed format as well and while most achievements are eligible, the story mode ones seem to not be.

Can we get the definition changed to "Constructed Complete or Hall of Fame event" please?

Thanks! :cheersL:
User avatar
Second Edition Playtest Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Playtest Manager
 -  
Socialite
Community Contributor
#565819
Armus wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:01 am
edgeofhearing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:56 am
SirRogue wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:48 pmIn addition to the already published, more restrictive Equinox achievement, we will also be adding a simpler "Equinox Player/Equinox Victor" pair of achievements, that will remove the restriction on [Fut] personnel, more in keeping with the celebration of the set.
Thanks for adding a less restrictive achievement! The achievement-hunting crowd is diverse, so I'm very happy for there to be something for everyone.
Not everyone....

@SirRogue
Why are all of these achievements limited to "constructed complete"? Hall of Fame is a popular constructed format as well and while most achievements are eligible, the story mode ones seem to not be.

Can we get the definition changed to "Constructed Complete or Hall of Fame event" please?

Thanks! :cheersL:
At first I thought you were going to go on about the director achievement again, which, as a single achievement... I just can't get too excited about. Sorry.

But, after reading, I think you make a good point about HoF compatibility with achievements. I can say for sure that achievement incompatibility with with other limited formats (say, for example, Block for 1e) has historically limited my interested in those formats. HoF has been affected as well, but my achievement fever has waned in recent years anyway, so they haven't dimmed my interest in it as much.

I get that the idea behind making most achievements complete-constructed-only is to limit the ability to make an achievement artificially easy because of the limited card pool. (Trigger warning: comparing HoF to OTF incoming) HoF isn't the same kind of format as block though, it's much less restrictive. It's more like OTF in terms of the volume of cards disallowed (I didn't say the "B" word at least), and OTF is permitted for achievement acquisition.

Bottom line: I don't think allowing HoF to count for achievements would compromise the system, and I support allowing it. But, I mean, I support allowing block too, so I am admittedly a filthy achievement liberal.
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#565826
edgeofhearing wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:56 am
At first I thought you were going to go on about the director achievement again, which, as a single achievement... I just can't get too excited about. Sorry.
So... a couple of things here. First, it's not just one achievement. It's a whole achievement pyramid. I really like(d) the idea of having achievements for running various formats that got you achievements for running all the formats in a given edition, which culminated in the "I can run anything" achievement - that rare, 25 pointer. It was worth chasing. But then to be denied the prize despite putting in the work REALLY SUCKED, and it's one reason (though not the only one) I've been a lot less motivated to be involved this year. I think I've run two online gigs this year compared with... 24 last year.

Second, I find it almost as frustrating that apparently my feedback was heard, and an alternate path was at least contemplated, but has yet to be created? Or announced? That almost makes it worse.

Regardless, at this point I've made my opinions and my frustrations known, so I don't really have a lot more to say on the matter.
edgeofhearing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:07 pm
But, after reading, I think you make a good point about HoF compatibility with achievements. I can say for sure that achievement incompatibility with with other limited formats (say, for example, Block for 1e) has historically limited my interested in those formats. HoF has been affected as well, but my achievement fever has waned in recent years anyway, so they haven't dimmed my interest in it as much.

I get that the idea behind making most achievements complete-constructed-only is to limit the ability to make an achievement artificially easy because of the limited card pool. (Trigger warning: comparing HoF to OTF incoming) HoF isn't the same kind of format as block though, it's much less restrictive. It's more like OTF in terms of the volume of cards disallowed (I didn't say the "B" word at least), and OTF is permitted for achievement acquisition.

Bottom line: I don't think allowing HoF to count for achievements would compromise the system, and I support allowing it. But, I mean, I support allowing block too, so I am admittedly a filthy achievement liberal.
On this we agree. I'm glad we can find common ground (though it's probably one of the rare contexts where the term "filthy liberal" could accurately be applied to me... :wink: )
User avatar
Second Edition Playtest Manager
By edgeofhearing (Lucas Thompson)
 - Second Edition Playtest Manager
 -  
Socialite
Community Contributor
#565837
Armus wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:04 pm So... a couple of things here. First, it's not just one achievement. It's a whole achievement pyramid. I really like(d) the idea of having achievements for running various formats that got you achievements for running all the formats in a given edition, which culminated in the "I can run anything" achievement - that rare, 25 pointer. It was worth chasing. But then to be denied the prize despite putting in the work REALLY SUCKED, and it's one reason (though not the only one) I've been a lot less motivated to be involved this year. I think I've run two online gigs this year compared with... 24 last year.

Second, I find it almost as frustrating that apparently my feedback was heard, and an alternate path was at least contemplated, but has yet to be created? Or announced? That almost makes it worse.

Regardless, at this point I've made my opinions and my frustrations known, so I don't really have a lot more to say on the matter.
Yeah, I know it matters to you. I mean, I wish the year that I won continentals weren't the one year since 2014 that there was no playmat for winning. But it happens. I can't imagine caring enough about 25 imaginary internet points that you hound the guy in charge of those fake internet points absolutely every time he appears in the forum, to the point that I assumed that's what you were talking about when you posted in this thread. And then when I mentioned it, you assumed that the only reason I cannot possibly care about your tragic loss is I didn't read every one of your rants about it, so I got another whole rant.
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#565841
edgeofhearing wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:22 pm
Armus wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:04 pm So... a couple of things here. First, it's not just one achievement. It's a whole achievement pyramid. I really like(d) the idea of having achievements for running various formats that got you achievements for running all the formats in a given edition, which culminated in the "I can run anything" achievement - that rare, 25 pointer. It was worth chasing. But then to be denied the prize despite putting in the work REALLY SUCKED, and it's one reason (though not the only one) I've been a lot less motivated to be involved this year. I think I've run two online gigs this year compared with... 24 last year.

Second, I find it almost as frustrating that apparently my feedback was heard, and an alternate path was at least contemplated, but has yet to be created? Or announced? That almost makes it worse.

Regardless, at this point I've made my opinions and my frustrations known, so I don't really have a lot more to say on the matter.
Yeah, I know it matters to you. I mean, I wish the year that I won continentals weren't the one year since 2014 that there was no playmat for winning. But it happens. I can't imagine caring enough about 25 imaginary internet points that you hound the guy in charge of those fake internet points absolutely every time he appears in the forum, to the point that I assumed that's what you were talking about when you posted in this thread. And then when I mentioned it, you assumed that the only reason I cannot possibly care about your tragic loss is I didn't read every one of your rants about it, so I got another whole rant.
A simple "no, it's not happening" a simple "it's happening but we're working on it and it's not ready yet", or even a simple "go fuck yourself" would all be acceptable answers.

I keep asking, or as you say "hounding" the Achievements master because there isn't and hasn't been closure to the question.

Also, that wasn't a rant. You've been around long enough to know it when I decide to rant about something.
User avatar
 
By Orbin (James Monsebroten)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2021
#566186
I just noticed that the 1e affiliation related achievements contain a section for "Romulan" and another section for "Romulans". The only thing in the "Romulans" section is the [OS] related achievements... it looks like this was an error when entering in the [OS] achievements that caused it to create a new group.

-James M
User avatar
Chief Programmer
By eberlems
 - Chief Programmer
 -  
Explorer
#566209
Orbin wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:45 pm I just noticed that the 1e affiliation related achievements contain a section for "Romulan" and another section for "Romulans". The only thing in the "Romulans" section is the [OS] related achievements... it looks like this was an error when entering in the [OS] achievements that caused it to create a new group.

-James M
nice find, groups are merged.
  • 1
  • 18
  • 19
  • 20
  • 21
  • 22
1EFQ: A Tale of Two Klingons

Personally, i don´t mind. so i am okay wit[…]

The Countdown Begins...

34 days.... Two new eligible expansions... 3 nom[…]

New 1E Teaser

Having the option for new themed is usually cool. […]

. I win 100-30 Good game! :thumbsup: