- Beta Quadrant
 -  
#561838
No. Glossary, "mirror universe":
[MQ] cards are often written from the perspective of the mirror universe. When a [MQ] card refers to a planet by name, it means the Mirror Quadrant version of that planet. All other named references to planets (in lore or gametext) mean the normal-universe versions of that planet (unless otherwise specified). For example, The City of B'Hala may seed only at the Alpha Quadrant version of Bajor (Alter Records); Mirror Terok Nor, which has the [MQ] icon, may seed only at the [MQ] version of Bajor (Disrupt Alliance).
(This rule used to be different, at one point references to planets could refer to either the normal-universe or mirror version. This is probably what you're remembering. Facilities still have to seed in their native quadrant, but can be built in a non-native quadrant -- so you can't seed Chamber of Ministers on Mirror Bajor. You used to be able to build it, but with the updated rules on naming planets, you can't.)
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#561863
That answer is correct.

Here is SOME HISTORY because I have it.

On 2000-12-06, Mirror, Mirror was released.

On 2001-01-29, Decipher ruled that planet references include mirror planets. Thus, City of B'hala could seed beneath Mirror Bajor.

On 2001-06-25, Decipher extended that ruling to regions. Region references included mirror regions. Thus, Navigate Plasma Storms could blow up your ship in the Mirror Quadrant.

On 2017-02-17, the Rules Committee reversed the ruling about planets. This was because Mirror Earth had been released, and the Rules Committee wanted to prevent Borg players from using Stop First Contact in the Mirror Quadrant on Mirror Earth to wipe out Alpha Quadrant Federation players. (Also, the way it would work was just confusing, since Montana Missile Complex is unambiguously an Alpha Quadrant time location.)

However, the Rules Committee did not notice the old ruling about regions, and therefore left it in place.

Eventually, the Rules Committee did notice the old ruling about regions, but by then it was too late -- a genre of decks had been developed that combined [KCA] with [Maq] using They Call Themselves The Maquis. Changing the rule would break all those decks. (Changing the rule would also make Navigate Plasma Storms work weird.)

The Rules Committee had very little ability and very great reluctance at the time to issue errata.

So now we have a strange situation where references to mirror planets work different from references to weird regions. It's been on my list to fix for ages, but (1) I'm not certain what the right fix is (and would have to sell the Committee on any fix anyway), and (2) my list is very large, I only have time to do about one item per month, and nobody ever complains about this one.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#561870
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:57 pm That answer is correct.

Here is SOME HISTORY because I have it.

On 2000-12-06, Mirror, Mirror was released.

On 2001-01-29, Decipher ruled that planet references include mirror planets. Thus, City of B'hala could seed beneath Mirror Bajor.

On 2001-06-25, Decipher extended that ruling to regions. Region references included mirror regions. Thus, Navigate Plasma Storms could blow up your ship in the Mirror Quadrant.

On 2017-02-17, the Rules Committee reversed the ruling about planets. This was because Mirror Earth had been released, and the Rules Committee wanted to prevent Borg players from using Stop First Contact in the Mirror Quadrant on Mirror Earth to wipe out Alpha Quadrant Federation players. (Also, the way it would work was just confusing, since Montana Missile Complex is unambiguously an Alpha Quadrant time location.)

However, the Rules Committee did not notice the old ruling about regions, and therefore left it in place.

Eventually, the Rules Committee did notice the old ruling about regions, but by then it was too late -- a genre of decks had been developed that combined [KCA] with [Maq] using They Call Themselves The Maquis. Changing the rule would break all those decks. (Changing the rule would also make Navigate Plasma Storms work weird.)

The Rules Committee had very little ability and very great reluctance at the time to issue errata.

So now we have a strange situation where references to mirror planets work different from references to weird regions. It's been on my list to fix for ages, but (1) I'm not certain what the right fix is (and would have to sell the Committee on any fix anyway), and (2) my list is very large, I only have time to do about one item per month, and nobody ever complains about this one.
I mean the best thing would be to reverse the planet ruling and just errata Stop First Contact to only work on Non Mirror Earth.

Curious as to why that wasn't though of instead of changing the fun ability to grab Bhala from Mirror Bajor?
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#561872
It was thought of. So let me try to explain, as best I can, why Rules went with the rule change instead of the errata in 2017.

First and most basically: this was a time period where there were very high barriers to errata (for various organizational reasons). When Rules urgently requested errata to Taris in 2014, hoping that her fix would go live within a couple weeks, it took nine months, well into 2015. Coincidentally, this Mirror issue started in 2015, when Design first proposed Mirror Earth, while we were still waiting on Taris. And this Mirror thing wasn't one erratum-- it would have to be three. (Stop First Contact, and I can't remember the other two... probably Population Nine Billion was one of them.) There was a real practical concern that we would request errata, errata simply would not happen, and then things would break. (That's basically what happened in 2015-2018 with the Enterprise Collection cards and [22] icon.) Fortunately, I am pleased to say, rules no longer has to struggle with any of those issues. We have an established production pipeline now and good lines of communication with balance, Art, and Design, which allows us to be much more proactive about clarifying errata.

There was also a much stronger sense on Rules back in 2015/16/17 that giving errata to Decipher cards -- even minor or clarifying errata-- was disrespectful or devaluing to Decipher's work. In the years just after OTF, Rules was extremely averse to making changes that might lead to accusations that the game's past was being erased, or that the game was being transformed into a different edition. So errata of Decipher cards just made us very gunshy. The rule change seemed lower-impact, and more easily reversible.

Also, there was a member of the Rules Committee who thought the planet ruling violated TrekSense more often than not: Fal-tor-Pan allowing Vulcans to show up at Mirror Vulcan instead of Alpha, Admiral Leyton reporting to Mirror Earth, Romulan "Reunification" hitting Mirror Vulcan... he had a point.

I think the clincher argument was that, in the vast majority of cases, we only mean Alpha Quadrant, and it is better to make the rule "Alpha Quadrant by default; add [MQ] or any if you mean [MQ] or any " than to make the rule "Both quadrants by default, add Alpha Quadrant if you mean that." (Partly because "Alpha Quadrant" is so much longer than " [MQ] "!)

Rules debated the solution off and on for two years (2015 to 2017) and tried to gently discourage Design from releasing Mirror Earth, which would force a decision. In the end, Design DID release Mirror Earth, and this was the consensus solution.

I'll be honest: I was in the minority on this one (I favored errata instead of the rule change, and actually I wanted to make SFC *work* against Mirror Humans using Mirror Earth), but I have since come to think that the rule change was probably the best of two not-great options -- even though it broke the Mirror B'Hala deck I had played at Regionals that year!

I just wish we'd solved the region thing at the same time!
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#561884
oh, wow, wait...
First Edition has a big Trek sense and if a card or rule would allow to wipe out Alpha Quadrant [Fed] when the Borg stop the first contact in the [MQ] that would feel terribly wrong.

* edit: typo
Last edited by Enabran on Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By DarkSabre (Austin Chandler)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
#561932
Enabran wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:30 am oh, wow, wait...
First Edition has a big Trek sense and if a card or rule would allow to wipe out Alpha Quafrant [Fed] when the Borg stop the first contact in the [MQ] that would feel terribly wrong.
Agreed. Wholesale Errata would have been the better solution. Also a great excuse to release some of those cards as hi res.
 
By jrch5618
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570025
It makes sense for Navigate Plasma Storms to affect both Alpha and Mirror Badlands.

It does not make sense for Bajoran Resistance Cell and They Call Themselves the Maquis to affect Mirror Badlands.

There is no clean solution, though, for there's so little room on the cards for errata....

Maye Storms can just say 'any Badlands Region' to clarify it means Alpha or Mirror. I dunno.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#570026
By definition there *has* to be Mirror Maquis. They're just peace-loving hippies that everyone ignores because they're utterly harmless (and they hide out in the Badlands so it's just not worth chasing after them).
 
By jrch5618
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570030
Yeah, except Mirror Badlands is occupied by the Terran Rebellion who are not at all hippies. And why would there be a Maquis in the mirror universe? The Maquis were created following the controversial Federation/Cardassian treaty and there is no such thing there.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#570051
jrch5618 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:06 pm And why would there be a Maquis in the mirror universe?
Because *everything* has a counterpart in the mirror universe. It's the whole conceit!
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#570054
AllenGould wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:14 am
jrch5618 wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:06 pm And why would there be a Maquis in the mirror universe?
Because *everything* has a counterpart in the mirror universe. It's the whole conceit!
I think the Maquis *characters* would have mirror Counterparts, but given the different geopolitical (spatiopolitical?) developments on that side of things, I'm not sure the Maquis *organization* would exist as such.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Cal Hudson, Michael Eddington, etc. as [TE] rebels. Same vibe, different specifics.

:twocents:
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By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#570057
Armus wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:24 am I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Cal Hudson, Michael Eddington, etc. as [TE] rebels. Same vibe, different specifics.
I would be surprised, actually. It's the mirror quadrant. It should have the "opposite vibe". So... Cardassian sympathizers?
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