User avatar
 
By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#570042
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:22 am It doesn't play on anything. It plays at the start of battle. Alas, Poor Queen doesn't play on a Borg Queen ('cause she dead by that point), All Threesdoesn't play on your draw deck, Anti-Matter Spread doesn't play on any specific opponent's ship. Attack Pattern Delta doesn't play on a Tac Console or a BBD. I Do Not Take Orders From You doesn't play on all your Treachery x2 personnel, Inside Operation doesn't play on your infiltrator.
Alas, Poor Queen: Location doesn't matter.
All Threes: Location doesn't matter.
Anti-Matter Spread: Affects "opposing ships". Doesn't say if that's only opposing ships in this battle, but doesn't really matter?
Attack Pattern Delta: Doesn't say if the Tactical Console has to be at the location of the battle. So I guess you could start a battle if your opponent has WEAPONS>33 somewhere and happens to have a Tactical Console there, so you can then suspend play with Bashir Founder and Supernova his fleet? (Yeah, I know, not very likely.)
I Do Not Take Orders From You!: No location mentioned. Kill people elsewhere?
Inside Operation: Says "in the battle", so no problems here.

I am not convinced that "at start of battle" means "at battle". I would argue that the "at" here only indicates "when" not "where".
Y'all looking for a loophole
I'm not looking for a "loophole". I am looking for clarity/consistency.
User avatar
 
By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570045
all those cards dont have a countdown anyway. theyre irrelevvant.
neither poor queen nor all threes are continuous effects. why bring them up?

but, they seem to miss "there" doesnt refer to the card, but the battle.
so the location is set, but its confusing and is the opposite of normalizing terms.
until all those cards are errataed to receive countdowns.
User avatar
 
By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570126
We Surrender tells you exactly what location it effects. "there". Since a battle can only be started in one place at a time, and the card tells you it effects the location of the battle, there is by default only one place it can effect.

since it has a countdown it stays in play until it self nullifies. where you put it doesn't matter. you can put it on the mission for reference, on the table in front of you, or in the fish tank next to Luther Sloan and its game text is still going to tell you that it effects the location of the battle.

There is no gameplay relevance to where you put the card. If it was an Event it would matter because I need to know if Kevin Uxbridge: Convergence can affect it or not. But there is no such equivalent card for interrupts.

cards with countdowns i see that do not tell you where to play them specifically......

Palukoo
Unlikely Pair
Spock's Brain
Topological Anomaly 4747
Temporal Vortex is weird because I don't know what you do with it if you used it for its last function. Leave it on the table until countdown expires? I don't even know why the last use exists since the first use is the same thing, except your choice. why would i ever let my opponent choose where to put my ship?
Hyper-Aging
REM Fatigue Hallucinations

i believe all the rest tell you where to play them.
User avatar
 
By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570131
i initially read "there" as the location where "card" is. which means, it could move. or even discard with chosen personnel. but "there" is the location where the battle started, thats kinda unclear.

palukko and co are technically broken as well. design did cut the essential "relocates with dilemma" from hippocratic oath
so the dilemma gets removed after encounter and the person is free again, unless effects from removed dilemma still affect the game?
it just works because we know its intent. (which is not helpful)
User avatar
Director of First Edition
By MidnightLich (Charlie Plaine)
 - Director of First Edition
 -  
Trailblazer
#570139
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:45 pm design did cut the essential "relocates with dilemma" from hippocratic oath
I'm sorry, what?
Hippocratic Oath wrote:To get past, most CUNNING MEDICAL must relocate with dilemma to nearest planet at another location (must still have MEDICAL upon arrival); stopped until countdown expires.
Also, I'm not sure why you're blaming design, as those folks have very little input on remastering old cards.

-crp
User avatar
 
By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#570140
MidnightLich wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:09 am
Ensign Q wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:45 pm design did cut the essential "relocates with dilemma" from hippocratic oath
I'm sorry, what?
Hippocratic Oath wrote:To get past, most CUNNING MEDICAL must relocate with dilemma to nearest planet at another location (must still have MEDICAL upon arrival); stopped until countdown expires.
Also, I'm not sure why you're blaming design, as those folks have very little input on remastering old cards.

-crp
I think he meant when they wrote Spock's Brain they omitted the 'relocate with dilemma clause from HipOath.

The Science person gets relocated to the planet, but where does the dilemma go?
User avatar
 
By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570142
yeah, hippo had the original working template. someone shortened it from the reworks and new cards mentioned. now the dilemma just enters play?
game logic got broken there, its only "fixed" by resolution guide.
countdown glossary needs an entry that cd cards always play on table unless stated otherwise.
User avatar
 
By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#573363
Bump.

Since Borg do not capture, if I play this to prevent my Borg opponent’s battle, they don’t get to capture two people, right? But battle is still cancelled?
User avatar
 
By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Donor
#573378
Wait, [Bor] Borg can't capture? Like, if a [Bor] player seeds cardassian Trap, nothing happens?
User avatar
 
By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#573380
winterflames wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:03 pm Wait, [Bor] Borg can't capture? Like, if a [Bor] player seeds cardassian Trap, nothing happens?
From Borg rulebook:

Personnel Assimilation
The [Bor] Borg affiliation frequently practice assimilation, not capturing your personnel but actually transforming them into new Borg enslaved by the collective mind.


and

Abduction
The [Bor] Borg sometimes abduct personnel prior to assimilating them. This is considered different from capturing (so an abducted personnel can't be Tortured), but functions identically: the abductee is escorted, moved like equipment, and can be freed if left unattended.
User avatar
 
By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Donor
#573385
Yes, I read that portion of the rules after reading Takket's post. It says that both of those things are not capture. I agree. There is nothing that says Borg don't capture, however.
User avatar
 
By Keiimaster (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#573387
winterflames wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:25 pm Yes, I read that portion of the rules after reading Takket's post. It says that both of those things are not capture. I agree. There is nothing that says Borg don't capture, however.
Right, I think this is a case where the rules imply that [Bor] Abduct and Assimilate, but not capture, as opposed to explicitly stating that [Bor] don't capture. However, I believe that [Bor] don't capture. Not sure if there is another place where it does explicitly state this. @BCSWowbagger, a little help?
User avatar
 
By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#573389
The rulebook does explicitly say that borg do not commandeer, but it's worded weirdly:
As always, [Bor] may not commandeer unless a card allows it. (No such card exists; see ship assimilation above.)
Why does it say "As always" ? This makes me think a section went missing in some revision of the rulebook. (and maybe that section had something on capturing as well?)
User avatar
First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#573390
Keiimaster wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:55 pm
winterflames wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:25 pm Yes, I read that portion of the rules after reading Takket's post. It says that both of those things are not capture. I agree. There is nothing that says Borg don't capture, however.
Right, I think this is a case where the rules imply that [Bor] Abduct and Assimilate, but not capture, as opposed to explicitly stating that [Bor] don't capture. However, I believe that [Bor] don't capture. Not sure if there is another place where it does explicitly state this. @BCSWowbagger, a little help?
If players think a rule exists, it usually either does or once did. I'm hesitate to gainsay that outright.

However, I am unaware of any rule -- current or past -- that prevents Borg from capturing. I scanned Glossary 1.8 (the final/prettiest Decipher Glossary) to make sure, but I can't find anything to that effect there: https://starshipexcelsior.com/othersite ... _08_02.pdf

There is a rule that Borg cannot commandeer, and I think @patrick is right that that rule was mangled in translation to the Rulebook.

Oddly enough, I remember writing that specific passage, way back in 2013. I don't remember writing most of the Rulebook, but I remember that sentence. I was naively trying to future-proof the Borg anti-commandeering rule to support cards that might, via the Golden Rule, allow Borg commandeering, but, in the end, I think I just made the rule very unclear at best, actually stomped on it at worst. It would be good to revise it. Hopefully next month.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#573392
My first reaction is that there indeed is (was?) a rule that Borg can't capture, but I can't find it in the current rules or in the old rules documents/supplements. I am probably confusing that with the rule that they don't commandeer. Some kind of Mandela Effect thing...
Defend Homeworld

I am opposed to this American politics of abol[…]

Come play Tribbles tonight! https://www.trekcc.or[…]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!

I'm pretty sure most people don't put that on thei[…]

Nor rules changes

First to seed it, gets it. We have been working […]