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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#566533
so far i played it that if there is no facility for Rhetorical Question, the mission is blocked and so is the ship.

the glossary only nullifies incoming messages if there is no outpost.

so what happens?
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Online OP Coordinator
By pfti (Jon Carter)
 - Online OP Coordinator
 -  
Praetor
1E American National Champion 2020
#566534
I am fairly sure there is an entry under required actions that says if there is no legal target in quadrant teh effect fizzles. This change was made for conundrum
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#566545
@Q: It is in the glossary. Your statement has no source in the glossary or elseware. So no reason to even bother to begin with. So you are just wrong.

Armus/Pfti are right.
@All: Use your valuable time for other things people :)
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#566546
why not post the source if its in the glossary? youre just trolling here.
actions - required
Required actions are usually indicated by "must" or "must do nothing but." For example, if Anya is present where Salia has just been randomly selected, Anya must replace her. Responses to a required action work normally.

You may not end your Execute Orders step until all your ships and personnel have completed all actions they are required and able to complete. Cards may not initiate actions that make it impossible for them to take an action they are required to take. For example, if a Federation ship and crew is at Samaritan Snare, they may not move away before attempting the mission.

A required action that affects a ship automatically affects its crew. "Full speed" and "normal speed" mean a ship must use all available RANGE each turn to accomplish a required action, even if this places the ship at a hazard such as Gaps In Normal Space.

"Must do nothing but" means that the affected ship and/or crew cannot initiate or continue any other voluntary actions (cloaking, beaming, attempting, battling, etc.) until the required action is completed, even if that takes more than one turn. (Outside personnel and equipment not yet compelled by the required action may report to or board it, but are then compelled. They may not use the affected ship's transporters.) The ship and crew may defend themselves in battle and use skills to cure/nullify cards affecting the ship, since those are not voluntarily initiated actions.

If required to move to a destination, a ship may take shortcuts, such as Wormhole or Lakanta, but only if it directly shortens the travel. For example, if Two of Nineteen is affected by Cytherians, it may use its special skill to download Transwarp Network Gateway to move between two existing Gateways, but not to play a new Gateway. Shortcuts are never required.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570600
bump.... so this is being discussed on discord.........

i think we all know/agree that if a card lacks a valid target, like Rhetorical Question or Conundrum, it is simply discarded.

But what if I have a ship and a facility in play, and they are not compatible?

Also, must I dock at a space facility to remove this dilemma?

What if the facility is a Nor with no docking sites? Or docking sites that can't accommodate the ship?

Note that REM Fatigue Hallucinations was errataed to say "board your outpost" to remove any ambiguity about what your personnel had to do when they got to the location of your outpost.

As was pointed out the DRG entry on this card is incorrect, and I can fix it, but want to get it right...
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#570601
I had it ruled in a tournament last year that you didn't need to dock, you just had to be at the same location.

It was relevant because my opponent's only facility in play was a Headquarters and obviously you can't dock with it despite it being a valid target for RQ.

Take that for whatever it's worth.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Donor
#570614
2 questions, the first may trump the second:
What part of the DRG entry is incorrect?

It says both "space facility" and "if possible" in the portion of the guide
dealing with docking. Would that not lead you to suspect that this portion isn't applicable to either a planet facility or a station which doesn't allow docking?
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570641
winterflames wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:50 am 2 questions, the first may trump the second:
What part of the DRG entry is incorrect?

It says both "space facility" and "if possible" in the portion of the guide
dealing with docking. Would that not lead you to suspect that this portion isn't applicable to either a planet facility or a station which doesn't allow docking?
if you don't have a facility, RQ (I think) should be discarded for lack of a target for you to move to.

"If possible" refers to the card's requirement that you place it on a ship at the location of the encounter. if not it can be placed on any ship.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570642
Armus wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:58 pm I had it ruled in a tournament last year that you didn't need to dock, you just had to be at the same location.

It was relevant because my opponent's only facility in play was a Headquarters and obviously you can't dock with it despite it being a valid target for RQ.

Take that for whatever it's worth.
If correct, i suppose it doesn't matter if the ship and facility are compatible. Right? Can anyone very if this is correct? I'm not sure why DRG says you need to dock so want to be sure before it is changed.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#570650
Takket wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:27 pm If correct, i suppose it doesn't matter if the ship and facility are compatible. Right? Can anyone very if this is correct? I'm not sure why DRG says you need to dock so want to be sure before it is changed.
If I were to wager a guess:

It's because people asked what "return to" meant, and Decipher said "ummm.... docked. Yeah, docked. That sounds right."

Then HQs came out (along with a firmer grasp of things like "planet and space facilities"), and people said "hey, how do I dock at this planet facility?!?" and Decipher added the bit about how you don't actually need to dock at facilities that you literally *can't* dock in.

But the case of "you have facilities but they're all space and incompatible" never came up, so.. it just never got addressed.

(As written, I'd say you're hosed, because you have a facility but you can't satisfy the condition.)
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#570662
A few notes:

* I believe Rhetorical Question discards for lack of target only because it is a dilemma, per dilemma resolution >> targets:
...if a dilemma targets cards with specific features (e.g., a personnel with Empathy, a male, a non-Cardassian), and there are no cards present with those features, discard the dilemma immediately without effect, as when a trigger is not present... Also discard the dilemma if there is no ship or facility to place the dilemma on, or no destination for a relocation (e.g., "furthest planet" when there is no other planet on the spaceline).
Even that's a bit vague about this specific situation. (It feels like there should be a clarifying "etc." at the end of that block.)

And if this card weren't a dilemma, I'm not sure it would discard for lack of target at all. The target rule does correctly talk about what happens if a target leaves play after being targeted, but that's not QUITE the same as what happens if there's no valid target in the first place.

That's a bit odd. Ensign Q seems to have a point that this rule isn't as clear as it would like to be. All the more reason to continue working on our full rewrite of the action rules.
I had it ruled in a tournament last year that you didn't need to dock, you just had to be at the same location.
You do have to dock if it's a space facility:
Glossary: docking wrote:Any card or rule that requires a ship to "return to" a space facility implies that it must dock at that facility. For example, a ship must dock at an outpost to be repaired by a Spacedock there or to cure REM Fatigue Hallucinations. (Cross-reference: return to a facility)
Since you had an HQ in your case, it sounds like that was the correct ruling. But this ruling would not generalize to space facilities.

Since Takket edits the DRG (thank you as always!), I'll give some explicit answers to his questions here instead of dancing around them:
But what if I have a ship and a facility in play, and they are not compatible?
If you select a planet facility as the target, it appears to be sufficient to return to its location. That feels weird to me, but I can't see a rule that demands anything more.

If you select a space facility as the target (or if your only possible target is a space facility), you need to dock at it to remove RQ. If you are unable to dock at that facility due to incompatibility, it appears to me that you will have no choice but to return to the facility and sit there until you rectify the situation (for example, with Memory Wipe).
What if the facility is a Nor with no docking sites? Or docking sites that can't accommodate the ship?
Then I would strongly advise against targeting that Nor as the facility to return to! If you select your Nor as your target, you will have to dock at it. If you can't dock at it, you will have to wait until you can (for example, by drawing into and card-playing Docking Pylons).
Note that REM Fatigue Hallucinations was errataed to say "board your outpost" to remove any ambiguity about what your personnel had to do when they got to the location of your outpost.
Yes. Rules does not like this unclear "return to facility" wording and is removing it where we get the chance. But, for now, it's still in there, alas.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#570742
Okay here is my crack at it... though for the record I don't really like all these rules compliant yet un-intuitive scenarios... Can I suggest the last sentence read "While dilemma in play, you may not re-attempt this mission and ship must do nothing but return to one of your compatible facilities (discard dilemma if none); then discard dilemma."

<P>If playing [Bor], discard dilemma; scouting attempt (or Q-Flash) continues.<P>

<P>Set dilemma aside; mission (or Q-Flash) continues. If Away Team/crew completes mission on this attempt, discard dilemma. Otherwise, opponent chooses one of your ships in play, at mission location if possible, to place dilemma on.</P>

<P>You may not reattempt this mission while dilemma remains on ship. Ship must do nothing but return to one of your facilities (and dock, if a space facility). Then discard dilemma.</P>

<P>If you have no facilities on same spaceline, or your only facility becomes an invalid target before you reach it (e.g. it was destroyed), discard dilemma. If your target facility becomes an invalid target, but you have at least one other facility on same spaceline, you must target and return to a new facility. If you are unable to dock with your target facility, (e.g. they are not compatible, or facility is a Nor without a docking site), you will not be able to discard the dilemma until you find a way to dock the ship.</P>
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#570791
Takket wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:04 pm Okay here is my crack at it... though for the record I don't really like all these rules compliant yet un-intuitive scenarios...
Nor do I! The wheels of clarifying errata grind slow -- but they grind exceedingly fine. We'll have to put up with this for now.

Anyway, good write-up, real close, and thank you as always. The main thing is that Conundrum (and its associated ruling) has some odd quirks to it that don't generalize to Rhetorical Question. Edits below:
<P>If playing [Bor], discard dilemma; scouting attempt (or Q-Flash) continues.<P>

<P>Set dilemma aside; mission (or Q-Flash) continues. If Away Team/crew completes mission on this attempt, discard dilemma. Otherwise, opponent chooses one of your ships in play, at mission location if possible, to place dilemma on.</P>

<P>You may not reattempt this mission while dilemma remains on ship. Choose one of your facilities. Ship must do nothing but return to the location of one that facility of your facilities (and dock,if it is a space facility, ship must dock). Then discard dilemma.</P>

<P>If you have no facilities on same spaceline, or your only the facility you targeted becomes an invalid target leaves play before you reach it (e.g. it was destroyed), discard dilemma. If your target facility becomes an invalid target, but you have at least one other facility on same spaceline, you must target and return to a new facility. If you are unable to target facility is a space facility and ship cannot dock with your target facility it, (e.g. they are not compatible, or facility is a Nor without a docking site), you will not be able to discard the dilemma until you find a way to dock the ship.</P>
(I've chosen to expose the DRG revision process in public here, so The Public should feel free to chime in if they think I've said anything wrong above.)

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