stressedoutatumc wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:31 am
BCSWowbagger wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:39 pm
Unless some other timing is specified, a card that lets you do that something allows it only as an order. (Like moving ships or attempting missions.)
So that is not clear from anything in the glossary or rulebook. Not in the download section or executing orders section. The implication in all those sections is that executing orders has to do with personnel ships and mission attempts. I’m not exactly fighting against it or complaining, but that’s a big distinction that doesn’t make any sense for cards like Defend Homeworld. Also, how would anyone new to the game even know thst since it’s so unintuitive? I didn’t know that was a rule at all. There’s no explicit mention of using a card such as DH only being usable during your own turn (for the second function) because it’s executing orders. Unless I’m just missing it and I’m the only one who has been doing that incorrectly.
Defend Homeworld's second function is an order. Reunite Legends' download is an order. We know this because they let you do something, but don't give any other timing.
Orders may be executed only during the orders phase of your own turn.
I think it's in both the Glossary and the Rulebook, but as such bedrock principles that it's possible to miss them, like missing the forest for individual trees.
Can you do these during the Seed Phases? No. Rulebook is clear on this:
The only actions you may take during the seed phases are:
* seeding cards;
* carrying out game text that takes place immediately upon seeding a card (for example, rotating Rura Penthe upon seeding Operate Dilithium Gulag); and
* Special Downloads.
All other actions, including "at any time" actions, must wait until the play phase begins.
If a seeded card (such as Assign Mission Specialists or Ultimatum) permits a download, and it is not limited to the play phase with a phrase like "in place of a card draw" or "once per game", then that download must occur immediately. Cards downloaded in this way are stocked in your draw deck or side deck, not your seed deck. They are not seed cards and do not count toward your 30-card seed limit.
Okay, so now we're in the play phase.
What actions can I take during my opponent's turn? I can't take any
actions during my opponent's turn, unless expressly allowed by a rule or card. That's why Interrupts, "at any time", and "suspends play" are cool. Rulebook is pretty clear on this, too:
Each turn consists of a series of actions taken by the player [emphasis added].
The Glossary is more explicit
, but also long-winded.
Alright, so DH/ASP has to happen during the play phase, and during your turn. Which part of your turn can you do it in?
Not during the start-of-turn segment; that's only allowed for cards like Process Ore that expressly happen before anything else on your turn.
Not during the card-play segment; the only things that can happen during the card-play segment are card plays (plus "at any time" actions + "suspends play" actions):
rulebook wrote:Your normal card play must take place before you take any further actions. If you begin executing orders before using your card play, you forfeit your card play for the turn.
...You may play cards "for free" before or after your normal card play (or both!), and there is no limit on the number of cards you may play "for free" during your turn. However, like your normal card play, you must play all your "for free" cards before you begin executing orders.
glossary wrote:During this segment of your turn, you may take no actions other than:
* playing cards;
* actions that suspend play;
* actions that may occur at any time (including activating hidden agendas and playing interrupts and doorways);
* sub-actions of those actions; and,
* any action that would respond to or replace an allowed action.
Any other action advances you to the "execute orders" segment of your turn).
You also can't use DH/ASP during your end-of-turn or draw phases, because, again, only cards that specifically say they work during those phases can work.
So, by process of elimination, we can see that there's only one time DH/ASP can possibly function: during the play phase, on your turn, during your "Execute Orders" segment.
This fits nicely with what the RB and Glossary have to say about orders -- although I agree that both documents place too much emphasis on the game's "built-in" orders and not enough emphasis on the way cards can provide new orders.
Rulebook wrote:Once you have played all the cards you intend to play at the start of your turn, signify this by announcing that you are now "giving orders". This is the part of your turn where you and your cards get stuff done.
Glossary wrote:Using game text such as "cycling" a card with Q the Referee is also executing orders.
What this boils down to is a good rule of thumb: in general, everything you can do in this game is an order, unless a card or rule specifically tells you it's not an order.
I think this is, for the most part, pretty intuitive. I don't think very many players have tried using, say, Orb of Prophecy And Change during their card play segment or on opponent's turn. We all seem to intuitively grok that Orb of Prophecy and Change is an order, which can only happen in the orders phase of our own turn.
But, for whatever reason -- perhaps the history of rulings about these cards, perhaps the fact that these cards bring other cards into play, perhaps the very similar cards that work at different speeds--players have been confused about DH + ASP for years.
not the only one, stressedoutatumc. This very ruling was sorely
contested in 2010... partly because many players were playing it the other way, partly because the rules were less clear then, partly because the Rules Committee at the time had some egregious failures to communicate -- an experience the R.C. learned from and which has been burned into its institutional memory ever since.)
Which is why I think the idea of giving those and similar cards a little splash of clarifying errata is not a bad one.
Anyway, I hope that helps.
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