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#570609
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:39 pm Unless some other timing is specified, a card that lets you do that something allows it only as an order. (Like moving ships or attempting missions.)

Defend Homeworld's second function is an order. Reunite Legends' download is an order. We know this because they let you do something, but don't give any other timing.

Orders may be executed only during the orders phase of your own turn.
So that is not clear from anything in the glossary or rulebook. Not in the download section or executing orders section. The implication in all those sections is that executing orders has to do with personnel ships and mission attempts. I’m not exactly fighting against it or complaining, but that’s a big distinction that doesn’t make any sense for cards like Defend Homeworld. Also, how would anyone new to the game even know thst since it’s so unintuitive? I didn’t know that was a rule at all. There’s no explicit mention of using a card such as DH only being usable during your own turn (for the second function) because it’s executing orders. Unless I’m just missing it and I’m the only one who has been doing that incorrectly.
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By Ensign Q
 - Delta Quadrant
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#570610
WeAreBack wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:38 am The biggest one of these for new players is Temporal Micro Wormhole. This is not because they will ignore that it only allows personnel and equipment to report, but because it isn't clear to new players that the phrase
Once per game, you may download Space-Time Portal
is something that they have to wait until their first turn of the game to do.

Anyone who reads this card would think, "Great, it says I can download this other doorway that allows me to play any [1E-AU] card once per turn, anyway so I can seed [1E-AU] dilemmas and [1E-AU] cards that must seed, like Temporal Benefactor."

A clarification on all cards that seed and that provide downloads only after the seed phase has ended (and that don't already have a phrase like "in place of your normal card play" that make this obvious) would be helpful given that the downloads on cards like Halkan Council work entirely differently.
im pretty sure you can seed [1E-AU] dilemma, even if you dont seed a door. legality is checked on reveal. you need the door then
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#570616
Ensign Q wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:15 am
WeAreBack wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:38 am The biggest one of these for new players is Temporal Micro Wormhole. This is not because they will ignore that it only allows personnel and equipment to report, but because it isn't clear to new players that the phrase
Once per game, you may download Space-Time Portal
is something that they have to wait until their first turn of the game to do.

Anyone who reads this card would think, "Great, it says I can download this other doorway that allows me to play any [1E-AU] card once per turn, anyway so I can seed [1E-AU] dilemmas and [1E-AU] cards that must seed, like Temporal Benefactor."

A clarification on all cards that seed and that provide downloads only after the seed phase has ended (and that don't already have a phrase like "in place of your normal card play" that make this obvious) would be helpful given that the downloads on cards like Halkan Council work entirely differently.
im pretty sure you can seed [1E-AU] dilemma, even if you dont seed a door. legality is checked on reveal. you need the door then
That's backwards. You need the door when you seed it, not when you reveal it.

So if your only [1E-AU] enabling door is Space Time Portal then you can legally seed your [1E-AU] dilemmas and when they're revealed, if you've already discarded your STP the dilemmas are still a legal seed. Conversely, if you play an STP later but didn't have one (or something else that allows [1E-AU] cards to seed), when you seeded your dilemmas, then any of your [1E-AU] dilemmas are discarded as mis-seeds when revealed.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
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#570618
Before, you could seed non- [Door] , non-mission, non-dilemma, non-facility cards in any phase unless the card said otherwise. The change to "Other only in facility phase" is relatively recent.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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1E World Champion 2021
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#570620
stressedoutatumc wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:31 am
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:39 pm Unless some other timing is specified, a card that lets you do that something allows it only as an order. (Like moving ships or attempting missions.)

Defend Homeworld's second function is an order. Reunite Legends' download is an order. We know this because they let you do something, but don't give any other timing.

Orders may be executed only during the orders phase of your own turn.
So that is not clear from anything in the glossary or rulebook. Not in the download section or executing orders section. The implication in all those sections is that executing orders has to do with personnel ships and mission attempts. I’m not exactly fighting against it or complaining, but that’s a big distinction that doesn’t make any sense for cards like Defend Homeworld. Also, how would anyone new to the game even know thst since it’s so unintuitive? I didn’t know that was a rule at all. There’s no explicit mention of using a card such as DH only being usable during your own turn (for the second function) because it’s executing orders. Unless I’m just missing it and I’m the only one who has been doing that incorrectly.
I think it's in both the Glossary and the Rulebook, but as such bedrock principles that it's possible to miss them, like missing the forest for individual trees.

Can you do these during the Seed Phases? No. Rulebook is clear on this:
The only actions you may take during the seed phases are:

* seeding cards;

* carrying out game text that takes place immediately upon seeding a card (for example, rotating Rura Penthe upon seeding Operate Dilithium Gulag); and

* [DL] Special Downloads.

All other actions, including "at any time" actions, must wait until the play phase begins.

If a seeded card (such as Assign Mission Specialists or Ultimatum) permits a download, and it is not limited to the play phase with a phrase like "in place of a card draw" or "once per game", then that download must occur immediately. Cards downloaded in this way are stocked in your draw deck or side deck, not your seed deck. They are not seed cards and do not count toward your 30-card seed limit.
Okay, so now we're in the play phase.

What actions can I take during my opponent's turn? I can't take any actions during my opponent's turn, unless expressly allowed by a rule or card. That's why Interrupts, "at any time", and "suspends play" are cool. Rulebook is pretty clear on this, too:
Each turn consists of a series of actions taken by the player [emphasis added].
The Glossary is more explicit, but also long-winded.

Alright, so DH/ASP has to happen during the play phase, and during your turn. Which part of your turn can you do it in?

Not during the start-of-turn segment; that's only allowed for cards like Process Ore that expressly happen before anything else on your turn.

Not during the card-play segment; the only things that can happen during the card-play segment are card plays (plus "at any time" actions + "suspends play" actions):
rulebook wrote:Your normal card play must take place before you take any further actions. If you begin executing orders before using your card play, you forfeit your card play for the turn.

...You may play cards "for free" before or after your normal card play (or both!), and there is no limit on the number of cards you may play "for free" during your turn. However, like your normal card play, you must play all your "for free" cards before you begin executing orders.
glossary wrote:During this segment of your turn, you may take no actions other than:
* playing cards;
* actions that suspend play;
* actions that may occur at any time (including activating hidden agendas and playing interrupts and doorways);
* sub-actions of those actions; and,
* any action that would respond to or replace an allowed action.
Any other action advances you to the "execute orders" segment of your turn).
You also can't use DH/ASP during your end-of-turn or draw phases, because, again, only cards that specifically say they work during those phases can work.

So, by process of elimination, we can see that there's only one time DH/ASP can possibly function: during the play phase, on your turn, during your "Execute Orders" segment.

This fits nicely with what the RB and Glossary have to say about orders -- although I agree that both documents place too much emphasis on the game's "built-in" orders and not enough emphasis on the way cards can provide new orders.
Rulebook wrote:Once you have played all the cards you intend to play at the start of your turn, signify this by announcing that you are now "giving orders". This is the part of your turn where you and your cards get stuff done.
Glossary wrote:Using game text such as "cycling" a [Ref] card with Q the Referee is also executing orders.
What this boils down to is a good rule of thumb: in general, everything you can do in this game is an order, unless a card or rule specifically tells you it's not an order.

I think this is, for the most part, pretty intuitive. I don't think very many players have tried using, say, Orb of Prophecy And Change during their card play segment or on opponent's turn. We all seem to intuitively grok that Orb of Prophecy and Change is an order, which can only happen in the orders phase of our own turn.

But, for whatever reason -- perhaps the history of rulings about these cards, perhaps the fact that these cards bring other cards into play, perhaps the very similar cards that work at different speeds--players have been confused about DH + ASP for years.

(You're definitely not the only one, stressedoutatumc. This very ruling was sorely contested in 2010... partly because many players were playing it the other way, partly because the rules were less clear then, partly because the Rules Committee at the time had some egregious failures to communicate -- an experience the R.C. learned from and which has been burned into its institutional memory ever since.)

Which is why I think the idea of giving those and similar cards a little splash of clarifying errata is not a bad one.

Anyway, I hope that helps.
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#570626
It does, but it should be explicit in the rulebook and the glossary that downloads from those cards and that family of cards are limited to your orders phase. It would take 2 lines and lead to way more clarity. Otherwise, the rule as you are even describing takes inference and passage down like viking lore. A new player would absolutely mess that up. I'm no where near new (since 1999 and my playgroup has a former Decipher Ambassador who ran tournaments) and we both messed that up.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#570627
Thanks.

I'm having a hard time visualizing what those two sentences would be. (Would this be an addition to DH's Glossary entry, or a general ruling? Where do we put it into the rule?) Do you have any suggestions?
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#570634
BCSWowbagger wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:35 pm Thanks.

I'm having a hard time visualizing what those two sentences would be. (Would this be an addition to DH's Glossary entry, or a general ruling? Where do we put it into the rule?) Do you have any suggestions?
This is just shot out of a cannon, but it seems that it belongs in the download section as an example.

Downloads have x different types.

1. Special Downloads that are indicated by an [DL] that can be executed at any time because they suspend play regardless of what card they are on. This means they can happen even during the seed phase, your opponents turn, response to an action, or interrupting an action like during a mission attempt/facing a dilemma.

2. Downloads that are [SD] on personnel or listed on a card you have already played or seeded. These downloads can only be executed during your "orders" phase of your turn unless otherwise specified. These downloads cannot be made in response to or interrupt an action (such as facing a dilemma on a mission attempt) unless specified on the card (First part of Defend Homeworld). Examples of this type of download are the second part of Defend Homeworld, Reunite Legends, Temporal Conduit, or Quarks Isolinear Rods and will usually be accompanied by the text "Once Per Game" but not give a specific timing example of when it can be used during the turn.

3. Seed Phase Downloads. ........be accompanied by the text "Once Per Game" but also give a timing target such as "Immediately" or "at any time". It should be noted that cards like Space-Time Portal still cannot interrupt actions or suspend play so cannot be played in response to a dilemma or an attack.

I think the problematic part is that, to me at least, the phrase "once per game" seems to have a very specific meaning that didn't have a specific explanation. Coming back to the game after a hiatus, it's confusing that the seed phase of the game is not "part of the game" or my opponent's turn is also "not part of the game". I do understand your explanation of it needing to be in the execution of orders phase of your turn, but it was just unclear to me and I have some deck rebuilding to do.

Maybe a way to handle it is to insert the phrase "as an order". Such as "As an order, you may once per game..." It would serve as a modifier in the same way as "immediately" does for a download.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
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#570640
stressedoutatumc wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:17 pm Maybe a way to handle it is to insert the phrase "as an order". Such as "As an order, you may once per game..." It would serve as a modifier in the same way as "immediately" does for a download.
This is what I was thinking, if we could get together a list of affected cards for the clarifying errata route (and if there aren't an overwhelming number of them).

Thanks again for your perspective and ideas! It's helpful.
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