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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
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#577149
GooeyChewie wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:18 am In my opinion, there is a subtle but real difference between "star power" and "off-color main characters*."
:thumbsup: Well articulated. I agree with your distinction, and with your claim that star power is important for all affiliations, but off-color mains are optional. (And I, personally, don't usually like them.)
 
By lotjx2
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#577164
Arik Soong should be neutral not [SF] after watching those episodes. He had no point was helping Archer and crew unless he wanted something or at the end when he had no choice. I think neutral versions of characters are better than trying to make them a certain affiliation. Galen is a great to add deck to almost any deck.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
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#577222
Aren't criminals in STCCG generally considered to belong to the affiliation to whose jurisdiction they are subject?

Like, Korris and Konmel are criminals rebelling directly against the authority of the Klingon Empire. K'Nera pursues them and ensures they are stopped. But Korris and Konmel are both [Kli] anyway. Menos is a crook, so he's dual [Vul] / [NA] . [Maq] Thomas Riker steals an entire starship from the UFP, but he's still [Fed] . Premiere Vash is somewhat notoriously [Fed] . Kasidy Yates, the smuggler, is [Baj] / [NA] , because she works for the Bajorans (while doing crimes).

These examples are why I think Arik Soong in both colors is appropriate. He's never working with [SF] , but he is a citizen of [SF] whether he likes it or not.

I could be underthinking this, though.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
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#577282
Nope. Criminality and jurisdiction have nothing to do with affiliation.

Koris and Konmel both saw themselves as parts of Klingon society, attempting to bring it back to the old ways. Furthermore, both were members of the Klingon Defense Force.

Menos used to be a Vulcan. Then he left Vulcan society and became completely independent. The card reflects both parts of his story, which is not only why he can be in "Vulcan" mode, but only has "V'Shar" when he's in "Vulcan" mode. That reflects Menos while he's still a V'Shar agent. If you put him in exiled "Non-Aligned" mode, he loses that skill, as he has left both the V'Shar and Vulcan society.

Thomas Riker still considers himself a member of the Federation, as he's a Lt. Commander. He's just all alone on the planet he was left behind on, but he still thinks of himself as a member of Starfleet, and has recently been rescued by the Enterprise on the card you linked to.

Later on, he joins the Maquis, but he's still a member of the Federation and believes in it broadly. Furthermore, he's trying to help other Federation citizens, who have been abandoned by the policies of the Federation government on colony worlds. That he's doing so via illegal means has no bearing on his citizenship or his self-identity or his affiliation, just as James T. Kirk remained a member of the Federation even after he stole the Enterprise to save Spock's katra.

There's nothing notorious about Vash. She considers herself a member of the Federation, even if she's shady and breaks some laws. Criminality has no bearing on affiliation.

Kasidy Yates works for the Bajorans, hence the Bajoran mode. She also is a member of the Maquis, who at that point had declared themselves independent of the Federation. Furthermore, she operates outside of the Federation, so it's not clear to me that she considers herself a part of Federation society. All are reasons for her being non-aligned, which have nothing to do with criminality.

Arik Soong's affiliation is completely inappropriate. He's not a member of Starfleet, nor does he work with them cooperatively. Instead, he tries to subvert them and manipulate them for his own ends.

You cannot be a citizen of Starfleet, as Starfleet is an institution, not a government. You can apply to Starfleet, and they can accept you, and you can be a member of Starfleet, but never a citizen. By the same token, you cannot be a citizen of the United States Military.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
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#577287
DISCO Rox No More wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:04 pmArik Soong's affiliation is completely inappropriate. He's not a member of Starfleet, nor does he work with them cooperatively. Instead, he tries to subvert them and manipulate them for his own ends.

You cannot be a citizen of Starfleet, as Starfleet is an institution, not a government. You can apply to Starfleet, and they can accept you, and you can be a member of Starfleet, but never a citizen. By the same token, you cannot be a citizen of the United States Military.
Interesting perspective! That's the rub, it sounds like. I never saw [SF] that way.

I have always interpreted the [SF] affiliation to represent (in a story sense) the entire United Earth government and society, prior to the formation of the Federation, and not simply the military organization Starfleet. That's why Emory Erickson and Jeremy Lucas (neither of whom were members of Starfleet) were given the [SF] affiliation in the original 18-card set. It's also (I think) why Danica Erickson, Nathan Samuels, and John Frederick Paxton are correctly [SF] instead of [NA] . Since Arik Soong was subject to United Earth jurisdiction in a United Earth jail and hoping to improve the human genetic stock, he fits [SF] just as [Maq] Thomas Riker does (in my view).

I recognize that the name of the affiliation is against me here, but I think it would be even weirder to say that, out of all the other affiliations (which encompass entire societies), the [SF] affiliation alone encompasses only its military and the rest of its society is [NA] .
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 - Beta Quadrant
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1E The Void Regional Champion 2022
#577317
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:03 pm
DISCO Rox No More wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:04 pmArik Soong's affiliation is completely inappropriate. He's not a member of Starfleet, nor does he work with them cooperatively. Instead, he tries to subvert them and manipulate them for his own ends.

You cannot be a citizen of Starfleet, as Starfleet is an institution, not a government. You can apply to Starfleet, and they can accept you, and you can be a member of Starfleet, but never a citizen. By the same token, you cannot be a citizen of the United States Military.
Interesting perspective! That's the rub, it sounds like. I never saw [SF] that way.

I have always interpreted the [SF] affiliation to represent (in a story sense) the entire United Earth government and society, prior to the formation of the Federation, and not simply the military organization Starfleet. That's why Emory Erickson and Jeremy Lucas (neither of whom were members of Starfleet) were given the [SF] affiliation in the original 18-card set. It's also (I think) why Danica Erickson, Nathan Samuels, and John Frederick Paxton are correctly [SF] instead of [NA] . Since Arik Soong was subject to United Earth jurisdiction in a United Earth jail and hoping to improve the human genetic stock, he fits [SF] just as [Maq] Thomas Riker does (in my view).

I recognize that the name of the affiliation is against me here, but I think it would be even weirder to say that, out of all the other affiliations (which encompass entire societies), the [SF] affiliation alone encompasses only its military and the rest of its society is [NA] .
I agree with this interpretation. It jives better with the term "non-aligned". You don't have to be member of Starfleet, for example, to be aligned with them. So someone like Arik Soong is correctly [NA] [SF] because he can be affiliated or aligned with either, depending on his current mood.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#577320
BCSWowbagger wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:03 pm I have always interpreted the [SF] affiliation to represent (in a story sense) the entire United Earth government and society, prior to the formation of the Federation, and not simply the military organization Starfleet.
I agree, both from a thematic and gameplay reasons. "Starfleet" is just the in-game name and Affiliation for Earth/Humanity in that time period. If we ever see Mayweather's family, they would fit as [SF] over [NA] , for example.

If we go by a very strict definiton of who should be what affiliaition, there are a lot more that should be Non-aligned, IMO, but that weakens the meaning of affiliaitons.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Void Regional Participant 2022
#577321
Armus wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:35 pm "He's [SF] because he was in a [SF] jail" has the benefit of being consistent with the Prisoner affiliation logic.

It's not *good* logic in my view, but at least it's consistent...
Wrong thread?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#577326
winterflames wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:48 pm
Armus wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:35 pm "He's [SF] because he was in a [SF] jail" has the benefit of being consistent with the Prisoner affiliation logic.

It's not *good* logic in my view, but at least it's consistent...
Wrong thread?
Ha! Yeah. My bad.

@Global moderators ... little help?

:lol:
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Moderator
#577362
The posts with the subject line about Full Complement of Shuttles and The Final Frontier were moved here from the thread on that topic.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#577364
Emory Erickson was "testing" a new method of transportation on Enterprise. Given his involvement with the transporter technology, and the limited use of its applications at the time, it's reasonable to believe that Erickson was working for or with Starfleet, as a sub-contractor at the minimum.

Jeremy Lucas was the administrator of Cold Station 12, a deep-space facility under the joint jurisdiction of Humans and Denobulans, via the Interspecies Medical Exchange. Given both its nature as a space facility, and its top-secret nature, it's reasonable to assume that this would fall under the auspices of Starfleet. Therefore, Jeremy Lucas was overseeing a Starfleet project and could reasonably be said to be working for Starfleet.

The logic for Emory Erickson being Starfleet also applies to his daughter/assistant, Danica Erickson. It should be noted that this wasn't a Decipher card.

Both Nathan Samuels and Paxton were inappropriately made as Starfleet cards, as they weren't affiliated with Starfleet in the show. In Paxton's case, it was wildly inappropriate. They should have been non-aligned, and it should be noted that these weren't Decipher cards. Apparently the designers of these cards didn't think through the affiliations properly.

When I think of Paxton, I think of Tallera. Recall that Tallera was:

A Vulcan Isolationist, posing as an undercover V'Shar agent, posing as a Romulan mercenary.

The "Romulan Mercenary" cover story explains the Romulan affiliation mode.

The "Undercover V'Shar agent" explains the Federation affiliation mode (and partially why she can't work with other Federation personnel, as she's trying to hide as undercover).

The "Vulcan Isolationist" explains the non-aligned affiliation mode, as she's explicitly trying to break her people (Vulcans, i.e. Federation) from the Federation. In essence, she's trying to turn a bunch of Federation into Non-Aligned and is working against the interests of the Federation.

What is Paxton? He's a "Human Isolationist," and hence should be non-aligned for exactly the same reasons that Tallera is non-aligned. As a xenophobic isolationist, he seems dead-set against Starfleet's goals, which is attempting to work with, embrace, and eventually incorporate other races.
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#577365
I am also reminded of the line flub in Star Trek 2009, when Pike calls the Federation "a peacekeeping armada," clearly confusing "Starfleet" and the "Federation."

Either the writers of that movie didn't fully understand Star Trek and its universe (confusing Starfleet with the Federation), or it was a brain fart on the part of the actor (in which case, it's the director that allowed the brain fart to get through to the final product who didn't fully understand Star Trek and its universe).

Let us not make the same mistake as the writer and/or director of "Star Trek 2009." "Starfleet" doesn't mean "United Earth," and given their track record, I suspect Decipher also knew and understood that. They consciously chose for the Enterprise cards to be "Starfleet" affiliation, and neither "Federation" nor "United Earth."
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#577366
^^^

This is a solid breakdown. I'll go out on a limb and say Paxton was made [SF] because they needed at least one on-color asshole to pass In the Pale Moonlight, which was a clutch MACO-stopper.

If that's the reason I'll live with it, because Lockouts with no answers suck, and sometimes gameplay just has to trump Trek-sense.
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