Caretaker's Guest wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:33 pm
I would also submit, that it is unlikely that only Americans hate cards...
Well, the only European I know who is constantly bashing Ref cards on the boards is Smiley. All the players I know from GB, Austria and Germany (and they are all pretty high-rated...) have no problem with Ref. Most whining about it comes indeed from Americans... And I wonder why. Most Americans seem to like it to keep it simple. Ref is simple...
Um, the first two posts in this thread
are from Europeans. And yeah, what Brian said. I'm really not seeing the geographic bias here.
I personally don't have an issue with
being around as a strategic option, but I don't want it to be mandatory either (where you may auto-lose if you don't stock it).
The reason is that the
mechanic gets into the timing weeds pretty quickly. I like rules-lawyering, but I would *never* claim that
is simple. Just a few examples:
-Because revealing a face-down Q the Referee
is not a valid response to a
-able action, whoever goes first can take an action free and clear, unless the opponent actually seeded the right card. For instance, if I go first and the first action of my turn is to play a Kivas
, flipping a face-down Q the Referee is NOT a valid response and you can't grab a Mirror Image
that way. Tribunal
doesn't help either unless you specifically grab Mirror Image before I play Kivas. (For the same reason, old veterans know that the first action you take should generally be revealing Q the Referee. I used to slip in free Scan
s all the time from players who took another action first.)
-Similarly, Panel Overload
may be a valid response to *playing* a Genetronic Replicator
, but not *using* one -- note that Panel Overload is worded so that discarding it in this way is a separate action, not an automatic effect on entering play. If you wait until I'm in the middle of a mission attempt or battle to download, reveal, or even use a face-up Panel Overload, it's too late. (I've taken advantage of this on many occasions too, with even experienced opponents messing up the timing.)
can be flipped as a valid response to a special download. Assuming no Tribunal of Q in play, can you initiate more special downloads (or even re-initiate the same one) *in response to Containment Field entering play*, suspending play to get these effects in before Containment Field resolves? (For all these questions, I'm not asking a gut response of what "should happen," can you justify using the timing rules in the Glossary whether this is allowed or not?)
-Or, what if both players try to get their own Containment Field in play at the same time (so they can control when/if it gets cycled)? Does it matter whether they are both revealing already face-down Containment Fields, or whether one or both players are suspending play with Q the Referee? (Be careful with the timing rules, remember they are hidden agendas which enter play face-down, and have to be revealed either as a separate action or as a valid response).
-In the latter case, what if both players have Tribunal of Q in play. I flip Containment Field face up, you attempt to suspend play with your own Q the Referee to download Containment Field before mine enters play. Whose Tribunal wins? Mine that says "no action may suspend play", or yours that allows you to "ignore any effect" (i.e. my Tribunal stopping you from suspending play) while downloading a
-I do the Mr. Mister trick to draw my whole deck, which mainly consists of I've Been Waiting For You, EMH Program, and holograms. (Assume no Tribunal of Q, and playing with Open rules). You use Q the Referee to download Scorched Hand on me, but I suspend your Scorched Hand by playing an EMH Program, then suspend play again to swap it with another hologram, and repeat until I've played dozens of holograms and my hand size is below 12 and your Scorched fizzles. Does this work? (Decipher ruled that it does *not*, but their justification from the action rules is pretty mind-bending.)
These things are not at all simple and beginner-friendly, it requires knowing details of the timing and valid response rules. I mean, I love rules-lawyering and have been playing since 1996, and I'm not 100% sure about the answers above. This isn't complexity in the fun strategic sense, but in the rules-lawyering and parsing specific Glossary text sense. For an optional add-on mechanic, that may be OK, but certainly not as something a new player is expected to know.