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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#579748
Dukat wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:53 am Hi guys,

two people seed the same mission.

My opponent wants to play Establish Gateway on that shared mission.

Can I nullify it with Access Denied?

If yes ... why ... if no ... why?
:D
The answer is no.

From the Rulebook under Shared Missions:
Each player uses only their own mission card for gameplay purposes
So your opponent will be targeting their copy of the mission with EG, not your copy, thus your AD has nothing to target.
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By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
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#579835
Armus wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:06 pm
Dukat wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:53 am Hi guys,

two people seed the same mission.

My opponent wants to play Establish Gateway on that shared mission.

Can I nullify it with Access Denied?

If yes ... why ... if no ... why?
:D
The answer is no.

From the Rulebook under Shared Missions:
Each player uses only their own mission card for gameplay purposes
So your opponent will be targeting their copy of the mission with EG, not your copy, thus your AD has nothing to target.
Are you sure? I'd say it's the same location.
What exactly are "gameplay purposes"? I would assume only "when you need any information about the mission, you only look at your own card" and anything else is just shared. Including "cards targetting something here".
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#579855
patrick wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:37 am Are you sure? I'd say it's the same location.
What exactly are "gameplay purposes"? I would assume only "when you need any information about the mission, you only look at your own card" and anything else is just shared. Including "cards targetting something here".
I might agree overall, bu in this case since Access Denied says "While in play, nullifies all Establish Gateway objectives targeting your missions", to me that's a clear "gameplay purpose", IMO. They are the same location, but your mission by definition can never be my mission. Control over a card can change, ownership cannot.

If it was a hypothetical, "target a ship at your mission", then ships are a shared location are at both your mission and mine at the same time. But when specifying the mission card itself, I feel safe in this one.
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By patrick (Patrick Weijers)
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#579893
boromirofborg wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:58 amI might agree overall, bu in this case since Access Denied says "While in play, nullifies all Establish Gateway objectives targeting your missions", to me that's a clear "gameplay purpose", IMO. They are the same location, but your mission by definition can never be my mission. Control over a card can change, ownership cannot.

If it was a hypothetical, "target a ship at your mission", then ships are a shared location are at both your mission and mine at the same time. But when specifying the mission card itself, I feel safe in this one.

I can't say I'm convinced...

The gameplay purposes sentence is actually a bit longer:
Each player uses only their own mission card for gameplay purposes; players may not use the "opponent's end" of their opponents' mission card at a shared mission.
I'm not entirely sure if semi-colons work the same in English as they do in Dutch. (And I'm not even sure I fully understand them in Dutch, to be honest.) But to me, the second part of the sentence appears to be explaining what gameplay purposes are. Since there are no other references to "gameplay purposes" in the rulebook, I would think that "not using the opponent's end" is the only restriction...

Also, the glossary says:
Duplicated unique missions which are stacked are always considered "your mission."
(It's in the HQ: Defensive Measures section though, so I'm not sure if that is supposed to be a general rule.)
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
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1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2022
#579909
I received both a PM request and now a forum post request for a ruling on this, so Rules will take a look.

In the meantime, the ruling of the Tournament Director (in whatever tournament you happen to be playing) is final.
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#579953
To stick an oar in, and starting with "remember that the rules for duplicated missions have changed over the years, so don't be surprised that things have become a bit clunky"...

I think the key point is to remember that you always are looking at your side of the mission. If you seed it, it's the "big side", otherwise it's the "opponent's side".

(Yes, I'm ignoring all the weird "spin the mission" mechanics.)

When you duplicate a mission, you get this weird welding effect - we treat it as a single mission, but each of you look at your copy only. The root reason is that a bunch of rules and mechanics (depending on format) say "you can only attempt your missions/missions you seeded". So the rules say "great, you both seeded it, so both of you can treat it as your mission and ignore the other side".

To use an example, think of Compromised Mission - if you both seed this, both of you are seeing the Rom/Kli side, and importantly: neither of you are seeing the Fed side. You can't interact with the opponent's side of the mission, nor they with yours.

Which is where we get to Access Denied - it's looking for an objective targeting your mission. But it's not - they're targeting *their* mission, because they literally can't see your side of the mission. They couldn't target the "opponent's mission" there if they wanted to.

Now, stepping back to the why and rationale - the purpose of this whole mechanic is so you don't get punished by duplicating a mission with your opponent. (The old rule was that the 2nd player had to swap out for a universal mission, which made many players and TDs cranky because someone had to keep a stash of replacement missions handy).

(Previous to *that*, you'd both just seed your mission separately, which meant you could have two Earths - once the game started caring about regions and homeworlds and such that wasn't feasible anymore).

So, to bring back around - the current rule is based around "if you both seeded this mission, both of you can treat it as yours so neither of you get punished". The flip side is that cards like Access Denied don't work, because we don't want your opponent to get punished for seeding their mission either just because you happened to seed the same one.

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