This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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 - Delta Quadrant
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Grand Nagus
2E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2022
#583092
Hey Brian, I did warn you on this one :) . But I had lots of fun. Ahab Picard going rampage, shooting right and left :) . I missed the solving part though and my Ver-Boimler were funny as well... Flo did seal the deal with MY Kurlan Naiskos... :) Long story... And Maniac Picard was about to destroy Andrea's Outpost, only his last turn saved him :) . No, can't remember when I had that much fun loosing. Death to Moby-DICK :) .
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E Borg Region Regional Participant 2022
#583094
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:45 pm What in the world did Peter do? I don't see a tournament report up yet so am currently in the dark.
It gives me a little satisfaction to say that his deck can be ruined with a single [Ref] card 8).
Scorched Hand could also harm him.
But I do not play with that card, because it always harms me more than my opponent :)


I'm looking forward to the decklists and Tournamentreports.
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#583105
KazonPADD wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:21 am It appears he forced people to use their one Q the Referee first. Ref defence useless.
which comes back to the core fault with the Ref mechanic since Day 1. (Not complaining about this tournament at all, this is more game theory/theory crafting.)

Instead of preventing abusive mechanics, the Ref just makes them possibly more risky or at worst, a slightly higher cost. This is by design, but it leaves things as possible.

Again, nothing against this tournament win, by all accounts (haven't watched the video yet) it was a thing of beauty, and I love a good combo.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583107
KazonPADD wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:21 am It appears he forced people to use their one Q the Referee first. Ref defence useless.
I haven't watched the videos yet so how? The revolving door on the tent? Given that I would think that he has to revolving door an opponents TMW I don't see how that would do it.

So that said, TMW x2 seeded shuts this down. I would also think that QTR seeded with scorched hand in the draw deck and having the wherewithal and patience to wait on it also deals with this. Whether or not that's an ok thing I'll leave for the balance team.

my opinion is no, the limitation of ref bullets is again laid bare which is so deliciously ironic after all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the euros about the DH nerf and empok nor should have been nerfed like 20 years ago.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think combos are great but instant win combos are frequently not and I've never met someone whose enjoyed being on the wrong side of one where there was no opportunity to interact with it.

I applaud Mr. Ludwig for coming up with this (hate the sin, love the sinner lol) and I hope he gets join the "I got something nerfed" club (or add a notch to his belt). :cheersR: :cheersR:
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By TyKajada (Alexander Schmitz)
 - Beta Quadrant
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#583112
.

Congrats to Peter, nicely done!
I watched the video (game against Johannes at 5:28). Hilarious! Especially the 'barbarian' (mit der Pompfe) in the background working as deck minion! Although this could be construed as coaching.. but if all are fine with it, more power to you.

Ingenious trick and no-one had the right counter against it present..
Let's see if the will be nerfing...
:cheersL:
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2022
#583114
TyKajada wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:03 pm Ingenious trick and no-one had the right counter against it present..
Let's see if the will be nerfing...
:cheersL:
I agree. Props to Ludwig for sure, but I'd rather something get done about this level of cheesy nonsense. This isn't Worlds 2002 we're talking about.

Are there answers? Sure. Is the number of seed and deck slots required to properly not autolose to such a deck disproportionate and meta-effecting? Absolutely.

Having to build in counters to all of the turn 1 win nonsense is one of the big reasons I retired from 1e after Worlds 2002 and didn't come back until OTF made it a proper game again. I really thought we were past this sort of thing...

(Again, none of this should be taken as shade at Ludwig. If anything he should be applauded for shining a light on it.)
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#583115
Honestly the big problem IMHO is the unlimited [Equ] DL when commandeering Empok Nor. Even if I manage prevent you from Space-Time Portal dropping for the whole game, the ability for you to STP up, then Masaka Transformations those [Equ] into personnel, means you can basically get any personnel you need instantly. That is broken enough.

As demonstrated in Peter's decklist, you can't even errata EN to only allow one of each [Equ], as he ran 60 different [Equ]. The only fix is a numeric [Equ] cap. The trick is finding the right balance. Too few and EN likely stays in the binder, too many, and you only weaken the combo.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583117
Professor Scott wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:16 pm Honestly the big problem IMHO is the unlimited [Equ] DL when commandeering Empok Nor. Even if I manage prevent you from Space-Time Portal dropping for the whole game, the ability for you to STP up, then Masaka Transformations those [Equ] into personnel, means you can basically get any personnel you need instantly. That is broken enough.

As demonstrated in Peter's decklist, you can't even errata EN to only allow one of each [Equ], as he ran 60 different [Equ]. The only fix is a numeric [Equ] cap. The trick is finding the right balance. Too few and EN likely stays in the binder, too many, and you only weaken the combo.
To quote a text I received this afternoon:. "Unlimited is bad design".

Agreed. STP needs to be looked at also and/or we need to continue to have the conversation that if a ref card for something exists, its a tacit acknowledgement that said thing is busted. Unlimited report with crew? Always begging to get broke. So either STP gets nerfed along with Empok nor for the same reason OR It's only a game becomes a rule OR both.

I.agree with @Armus OTF is supposed to be better than this...
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2022
#583119
Professor Scott wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:16 pm you can't even errata EN to only allow one of each [Equ], as he ran 60 different [Equ]. The only fix is a numeric [Equ] cap. The trick is finding the right balance. Too few and EN likely stays in the binder, too many, and you only weaken the combo.
As a point of fact, EN *CURRENTLY* limits you to one copy of each card title downloaded, which is why Peter built his deck the way he did.

I agree that the unlimited download of equipment is part of the problem. As I said on the Discord yesterday, I have no problem with unlimited sites if somebody wants to make the deck investment. Hopefully the balance team will figure something out.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
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#583128
Armus wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:33 pm
Professor Scott wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:16 pm you can't even errata EN to only allow one of each [Equ], as he ran 60 different [Equ]. The only fix is a numeric [Equ] cap. The trick is finding the right balance. Too few and EN likely stays in the binder, too many, and you only weaken the combo.
As a point of fact, EN *CURRENTLY* limits you to one copy of each card title downloaded, which is why Peter built his deck the way he did.

I agree that the unlimited download of equipment is part of the problem. As I said on the Discord yesterday, I have no problem with unlimited sites if somebody wants to make the deck investment. Hopefully the balance team will figure something out.
So 2 things...
1) The different sites is limited in that there are only currently 23 sites, some of which are not compatible or duplicates...(Ops and Ops: Mirror Universe), but I agree, if the player wants to stock them all I say go for it as they are DL'd to the table and stay there.

Edit: out of the 23 sites I count 14 that can DL'd to Empok Nor. Given that 2-6 are already in place by the time EN is commandeered (A docking site and Ops), that leaves 8-12 than can be DL'd.

2) I, like probably others, didn't not realize that different was transitive in this case. I parsed it as

When first flipped, each player may download to station any number of different compatible Site and Equipment cards.

as opposed to meaning

When first flipped, each player may download to station any number of different compatible Site and Equipment cards.

That said, you are correct that that bit of fine-tuning has already been dialed in and it would seem to confirm my assertion that a numeric limitation is the right recourse. If we take a note from the Sites range, 12 might be a good number. That's gets all the sites (if any new ones are created then the player has to make a choice or needs to seed mare than 2 above), and a dozen different equipment. So in this case Peter could still run the same trick with 12 [Equ], a ship, and the CS personnel for 14 cards STP'd to hand and then Masaka for basically 2 starting hands worth of cards and then STP them down. That's still a huge advantage on turn 1. Anyone want to weigh in on 12?
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
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1E The Void Regional Participant 2022
#583130
What about a limit to the number of equipment downloaded per site? Not all sites allow equipment to report there, but you still end up with
Security office
Science lab
Processing unit
infirmary

If you limit it to 2 each, then the number of hand weapons is limited.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2022
#583134
Here's what I would do if I had a magic wand...
Flip Side of Empok Nor wrote:When first commandeered, all players may download any number of different sites and up to six different equipment cards here. Normal reporting now allowed.
And
Last Part of Space-Time Portal wrote: ...OR (once per game) Report With Crew one [1E-AU] ship (all cards must be [1E-AU], limit 6) to any location.
Now both mechanics still work, and even still work together, but the crazy is dialed waaay down to *only* about 2 modern game turns worth of card plays, which is still a decent deal, just not crazyballs stupid broken level of good.

Thoughts?
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 - Beta Quadrant
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#583138
If we are limiting the number of equipment to six (which I like), I honestly would limit the sites to the same number. Not that I think the unlimited sites is broken(I don’t), but I think the card reads cleaner and is easier to remember if the numbers are the same each time.
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