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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583226
If there's a side thought I've had come raging back up through the layers of my consciousness this week - it's that my case for Dyson sphere Door is again being bolstered by the realities of 1e otf.

Empok nor is on the watchlist, deservedly so, and will probably get a temporary ban for world's to give balance the time it needs to make a proper errata. But I would like to see design, balance and rules join me in taking a broader view. Instead of bringing a hammer down on it, I would like to see it get a loose cap and then see cards made that keep it in check. Dyson Sphere Door has built in empok nor counter tech. So really, what we need is more empok nor dilemmas. Dangerous Derelict is already there to be the grease. Make them generally useful and suddenly there's police patrolling the neighborhood.

But really though design has missed the boat on making downloader dilemmas ubiquitous and competitive. Ds9 didn't get the love it deserved in that area because of the failed block experiment and what has come out is fun but not really "worth it".

Making more genuinely good downloader dilemmas does a lot of heavy lifting toward what i think we all want: a curbing of empok nor, Encouraging more dilemma diversity, providing flexibility in combo designs, it has the potential to slow down the number of turns in the game, it can create more chaotic fun (if the sandbox is expanded to say, you get to d/l randomly out of DSD) and it allows the casual players to craft more/better/tougher thematic scenario combos as they become available.

Thoughts?
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2022
#583232
I don't disagree that more Empok Nor dilemmas would be good for the game. More Empok Nor dilemmas that are otherwise generally useful would be even better for the game so you can throw curve balls whether you're running the DSD or not.

That said, I still think we need to limit the payoff somewhat. Even if you clear the dilemmas, a 60+ card equipment Bounty sets the table for too many shenanigans, especially when you can have your cake and eat it too by bouncing a bunch of cards to hand AND keep the best toys in play for your people to use.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583236
Armus wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:40 pm I don't disagree that more Empok Nor dilemmas would be good for the game. More Empok Nor dilemmas that are otherwise generally useful would be even better for the game so you can throw curve balls whether you're running the DSD or not.

That said, I still think we need to limit the payoff somewhat. Even if you clear the dilemmas, a 60+ card equipment Bounty sets the table for too many shenanigans, especially when you can have your cake and eat it too by bouncing a bunch of cards to hand AND keep the best toys in play for your people to use.
I don't disagree with you. I still think a cap is needed. I just know how hard the knee gets jerked sometimes and we keep losing some interesting things when I feel like design needs to do a better job of identifying areas where they could head things off AND expand the sandbox.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E Borg Region Regional Participant 2022
#583283
grrrr.... the next set of [Ref] haters thoughts. Why Should we make new toys against old cards when we already have old toys against that cards? Seed the damn Tribunal instead of your suggested Dyson Sphere Door and let the old cards alone.
Tribunal is a 100% safety against Empok Nor nonsense (Scorched Hand, It's only a game). And I really find it interesting that now, after a European remembered a combo (one that is more than 20 years old), and as I can remember no one from that tournament complains about it, the same 5 [Ref] haters stand up and start to cry "Ban! Errata! Whatchlist!"
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2022
#583286
Enabran wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:51 pm grrrr.... the next set of [Ref] haters thoughts. Why Should we make new toys against old cards when we already have old toys against that cards? Seed the damn Tribunal instead of your suggested Dyson Sphere Door and let the old cards alone.
Tribunal is a 100% safety against Empok Nor nonsense (Scorched Hand, It's only a game). And I really find it interesting that now, after a European remembered a combo (one that is more than 20 years old), and as I can remember no one from that tournament complains about it, the same 5 [Ref] haters stand up and start to cry "Ban! Errata! Whatchlist!"
If you like [Ref] that much, why are you playing OTF?

I get the 1e Purist argument, but that's why we have Open... why not play that instead if the necessity of [Ref] and the art of [Ref] play/counterplay appeals?
 
By phaserihardlyknowher (Ben Daeuber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583297
Enabran wrote:grrrr.... the next set of [Ref] haters thoughts. Why Should we make new toys against old cards when we already have old toys against that cards? Seed the damn Tribunal instead of your suggested Dyson Sphere Door and let the old cards alone.
Tribunal is a 100% safety against Empok Nor nonsense (Scorched Hand, It's only a game). And I really find it interesting that now, after a European remembered a combo (one that is more than 20 years old), and as I can remember no one from that tournament complains about it, the same 5 [Ref] haters stand up and start to cry "Ban! Errata! Whatchlist!"
Do you seed Tribunal or use [Ref]? If so, why?
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583319
Enabran wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:51 pm grrrr.... the next set of [Ref] haters thoughts. Why Should we make new toys against old cards when we already have old toys against that cards? Seed the damn Tribunal instead of your suggested Dyson Sphere Door and let the old cards alone.
Tribunal is a 100% safety against Empok Nor nonsense (Scorched Hand, It's only a game). And I really find it interesting that now, after a European remembered a combo (one that is more than 20 years old), and as I can remember no one from that tournament complains about it, the same 5 [Ref] haters stand up and start to cry "Ban! Errata! Whatchlist!"
100% safety? I think I missed the memo where Amanda Rogers and Quinn no longer exists to prevent scorched hand and Revolving door can't close the ref pile entirely.

Many of us remembered Empok Nor but also didn't put in the time that Peter did to cover nearly all the angles. It's not just about empok nor. There's a bigger picture and that picture is that OPEN is not the same as OTF.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2022
#583321
Ummm.... @Hoss-Drone ....

Scorched Hand is immune to Amanda Rogers, and by extension, Quinn... :shifty:

I hadn't even thought of Revolving Door on the Civil War tent. I think I thought it was immune, but it's apparently... not?! :shock:

Oh wait... does Tribunal of Q's text make RevDoor irrelevant for [Ref] card downloads? That might explain it.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
Contender
Community Contributor
1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2022
#583322
Armus wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:04 pm Oh wait... does Tribunal of Q's text make RevDoor irrelevant for [Ref] card downloads? That might explain it.
Yep. TribQ lets you ignore Revolving Door, Computer Crash, Goddess of Empathy, or anything else that's trying to keep you from your [Ref] pile.
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By Dukat
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2022
#583332
Armus wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:07 pm
Enabran wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:51 pm grrrr.... the next set of [Ref] haters thoughts. Why Should we make new toys against old cards when we already have old toys against that cards? Seed the damn Tribunal instead of your suggested Dyson Sphere Door and let the old cards alone.
Tribunal is a 100% safety against Empok Nor nonsense (Scorched Hand, It's only a game). And I really find it interesting that now, after a European remembered a combo (one that is more than 20 years old), and as I can remember no one from that tournament complains about it, the same 5 [Ref] haters stand up and start to cry "Ban! Errata! Whatchlist!"
If you like [Ref] that much, why are you playing OTF?

I get the 1e Purist argument, but that's why we have Open... why not play that instead if the necessity of [Ref] and the art of [Ref] play/counterplay appeals?
Because OTF is the format of choice for all big tournies.


As it has been said: No one at Kaiserfest actually complained. We were fascinated by how the deck works.

Americans however shit their pants and become cry babys 'meh meh meh ... bad deck ... ban cards ... do not likey playing with toys ... can make my deck bad bad'.

Come on guys, grow a pair and accept the fact that Peter's deck was not based on ONE card being overpowered, but the fact that he forced opponent's into making mistakes.
His deck could easily be countered with several cards in fact.


This whole thing is getting utterly ridiculous, just because the American continent likes their shitty 1E solitaire ...
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 - Delta Quadrant
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Grand Nagus
2E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2022
#583334
If Peter's ingenious meta read, full of red herrings and baits, proves one thing, it is that the anti-ref faction will need a lot of time and effort to persue their agenda... But I can already foreshadow next unholy erratum: Limiting STP to four... ;) Es ist ja fast schon ulkig, wie versucht wird, hier Argumentationslinien zu retten. Nö, mir hat das eines gezeigt: Ref wird es noch lange geben (müssen)...
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 - Delta Quadrant
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Grand Nagus
2E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2022
#583336
@Brian: Yes, that post probably as well... It gives me somehow a childish satisfaction that a deck that could have been only stopped by Ref won this :) . Edit: Why not implement an OTF rule that limits all report with crew actions to 4 total? This way you would get rid of It's only too...
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By Dukat
 - Delta Quadrant
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1E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2022
#583338
Armus wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:05 am
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:54 am Most vocal voices are not necessarily always right...
*Reads Dukat's above post*

Yup. Indeed.
I am not the loud voice that cries 'BAAAN'. I am just responding to it, so don't try this Jordan Peterson stuff on me.
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