This forums is for questions, answers, and discussion about First Edition rules, formats, and expansions.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
#583408
Piggy-backing on @boromirofborg, I am all for Peter's deck existing in Open, but not in OTF. In case some of you have forgotten, the T in OTF is Tournament. Tournaments are about playing this game, not attending this game. Nobody signs up for a tournament just to hand Ratings Points over to their opponent just so they can say that sat across from a first turn win. IMHO, no deck should be able to win in 2 turns, even. All this talk is not about changing 1e into 2e like some have accused in multiple threads. At best it's about making 1e OTF less like 1e Open. In fact most of the discussions have been about making changes that have no effect on OPEN at all.

For example, ban Empok Nor in OTF; Open players says, "What's a ban list?"

Make an OTF Report with Crew limit. Open cares not.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Void Regional Participant 2022
#583409
If you set the OTF report with crew limit at 7 personnel you won't even have to limit it to non- [Bor] like our current limiters do.
 
By phaserihardlyknowher (Ben Daeuber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583415
boromirofborg wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:57 pm Some of the responses to be seem to be a little defensive over the validity of the deck and the win by extension. I don't see it that way at all. The deck is a thing of beauty, amazing, excellent playing and gamesmanship by Peter.


I am glad it existed, he deserved his win, and no on e should think poorly of him or the deck.
Rarely does one get to say "Don't hate the player, hate the game." and mean it literally.

I think he even said something should probably be done about it.
 
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#583428
To me, the ultimate problem was the huge hand size, so the simple fix is a Empok Nor errata:

When first flipped, each player may download to station any number of different compatible Site and Equipment cards (limit one per Site per player). Normal reporting now allowed. (Not duplicatable.)
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Void Regional Participant 2022
#583455
Dukat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:49 am Yet again ... fascinating how the people who are complaining were NOT at Kaiserfest, whilst those who were there did not complain.
... you do realize there are a lot more people who were not at Kaiserfest than who were there, right? If we use this logic you seem to be proposing, you have to face a deck in a real tournament to know if it needs fixing, then every Balance Team member would have to attend every tournament and face every deck there before they could propose any eratta, ever.

Plus, we don't know if or what the Balance Team is even thinking, so all this is just people's personal opinion. Which they are entitled to speak.

And, remember, you agreed with me earlier, so you don't get to tell me it's all because I disagree with you that I say these things.

Back to the original topic:
Dyson Sphere door is a fun tool. I enjoy using it in my decks when I run short of seed space for dilemmas. And I usually slip Empok Nor dilemmas in to fill any remaining space in the side deck, because it can't hurt to have them, just in case.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583458
winterflames wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:33 am
Dukat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:49 am Yet again ... fascinating how the people who are complaining were NOT at Kaiserfest, whilst those who were there did not complain.
... you do realize there are a lot more people who were not at Kaiserfest than who were there, right? If we use this logic you seem to be proposing, you have to face a deck in a real tournament to know if it needs fixing, then every Balance Team member would have to attend every tournament and face every deck there before they could propose any eratta, ever.

Plus, we don't know if or what the Balance Team is even thinking, so all this is just people's personal opinion. Which they are entitled to speak.

And, remember, you agreed with me earlier, so you don't get to tell me it's all because I disagree with you that I say these things.

Back to the original topic:
Dyson Sphere door is a fun tool. I enjoy using it in my decks when I run short of seed space for dilemmas. And I usually slip Empok Nor dilemmas in to fill any remaining space in the side deck, because it can't hurt to have them, just in case.
..and also by his logic its ok even if someone has a serious problem with something as long as they dont say anything. #abuserlogic
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2022
#583460
Dukat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:49 am Yet again ... fascinating how the people who are complaining were NOT at Kaiserfest, whilst those who were there did not complain.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to be fascinated by the deck, to respect the ingenuity of it, to respect the gamesmanship of catching people off-guard with it, to find the results of the tournament perfectly acceptable, and yet at the same to recognize that cards should have limits so that this sort of thing does not happen.
Dukat wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:39 am This whole thing is getting utterly ridiculous, just because the American continent likes their shitty 1E solitaire ...
The deck in question turns the game into 1E solitaire. What I (speaking for myself, not the American continent) do not like is a game with a lot of unwritten rules in the form of magic bullets which exist solely to curb strategies which should not exist in the first place.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583463
GooeyChewie wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:34 am
I think it's perfectly reasonable to be fascinated by the deck, to respect the ingenuity of it, to respect the gamesmanship of catching people off-guard with it, to find the results of the tournament perfectly acceptable, and yet at the same to recognize that cards should have limits so that this sort of thing does not happen.
:thumbsup: Not a single person has complained or talked ill of peter, his performance or the results, if anything it's been the opposite.

When I won major tournaments and my decks were immediately scrutinized for bans/errata I didn't immediately think it was some personal vendetta and based on his comments neither does Peter so this is really just about @Dukat personal issues as evidenced by his lobbing of insults.

Now let's get back to the original topic:. Would you like to see more carrots given for using Dyson Sphere, downloader dilemmas, or both? Why or why not?
 
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#583468
Dukat wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:39 am As it has been said: No one at Kaiserfest actually complained. We were fascinated by how the deck works.

Americans however shit their pants and become cry babys 'meh meh meh ... bad deck ... ban cards ... do not likey playing with toys ... can make my deck bad bad'.

Come on guys, grow a pair and accept the fact that Peter's deck was not based on ONE card being overpowered, but the fact that he forced opponent's into making mistakes.
His deck could easily be countered with several cards in fact.


This whole thing is getting utterly ridiculous, just because the American continent likes their shitty 1E solitaire ...
1. Pretty much everyone in this thread, regardless of continent, is fascinated by the deck and has expressed admiration for its cleverness. I especially like the psychological element, a lot of players have forgotten that Ref-drain is a thing. (I'm curious to know if anyone actually let him play the Revolving Door via Parallax Arguers, though... the standard move is to give the opponent points, every time I've let someone start playing events I regret it, and usually fast.)

2. A deck with a good shot at a first-turn win does not belong in OTF, specifically because it turns the game into "shitty 1E solitaire." Winning before your opponent can even take an action is literal solitaire. As others have said, Open exists for those who like playing in that sort of environment; and I have no problem if some player groups prefer that format and even want their major tournaments that way.

As for me, in general I'm fine with combo decks in OTF -- for example, I was actually a bit sad that "voluntarily" was added to Defend Homeworld; that's a deck that literally CANNOT work as solitaire, since the trick relies on an opponent attempting a mission. As brilliant as the Empok deck is, its best case scenario is an opponent that takes no actions whatsoever.

3. I'm pretty sure the "American continent likes shitty 1E solitaire" meme isn't true. I'm even more sure that it's not helpful for discussion, and 100% sure that it's completely backwards in this case (see previous point). The top 1E players here all have played their share of interactive decks. For Kevin and Kris it's practically their calling card. James won Worlds with an interactive deck (an interactive combo deck, no less). MVB's last deck was KCA battle. Sykes plays decks with good battle options. Franklin was the one who developed the Hirogen Talon loop deck. Drake and Tufts play interaction if they think that's the best shot at winning (Tufts won Worlds with Ferengi Military Operations, in 2011 I helped Jason put together a combo-ish Mah'Nlv/Blood Oath armada). I can go on and on... who specifically are the North American players that want to get rid of interaction?

4. Speaking from personal experience, over the years I've played many combo decks, and won a number of games on the first turn (or effectively won by destroying their only facility or some such). I like constructing intricate Rube Goldberg-esque scenarios by making cards do things they were never supposed to do. But again I distinguish between complex combos (which absolutely belong in OTF) to first-turn wins/lockouts (which absolutely don't). The fun -- and the interaction -- happens when *both* players' decks have a real shot at winning.
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By GooeyChewie (Nathan Miracle)
 - Gamma Quadrant
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Architect
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2022
#583476
Hoss-Drone wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:20 am Now let's get back to the original topic:. Would you like to see more carrots given for using Dyson Sphere, downloader dilemmas, or both? Why or why not?
I would like to see more carrots for Dyson Sphere, if for no other reason than the fact that it is an interesting design space to work in. Obviously we could get more "download and seed here up to two of the following" dilemmas, but I think we could do more by linking the deck and the dilemmas beneath Dyson Sphere Doorway. Imagine, for example, a card which allows a [Car] player to download and seed Cardassian Trap and/or Cardassian Processing once per game. Right now about the only card we have which does something similar is Nano-Biogenic Disarmament; we could greatly expand on the concept.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Void Regional Participant 2022
#583477
Definitely more like disrupted continuum, Nano-Biogenic Disarmament, All-Consuming Evil. fun stuff and maybe buy you that extra turn to win.
Last edited by winterflames on Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Grand Nagus
2E European Continental Semi-Finalist 2022
#583478
I love the Dyson Door. Usually I use it solely with Disrupted plus AllConsuming and a wide variety of dilemmas to swap in as needed. But more download dilemmas (which are upgrading underplayed dilemmas) are always welcome. Dyson Sphere (and Disrupted) is one of my favourite cards designed. And the SoG Events enhancing old dilemmas. Would love to see more stuff like that as well.
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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Void Regional Participant 2022
#583480
Caretaker's Guest wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:37 am I love the Dyson Door. Usually I use it solely with Disrupted plus AllConsuming and a wide variety of dilemmas to swap in as needed. But more download dilemmas (which are upgrading underplayed dilemmas) are always welcome. Dyson Sphere (and Disrupted) is one of my favourite cards designed. And the SoG Events enhancing old dilemmas. Would love to see more stuff like that as well.
I can't wait to use the SoG stuff with the pawns and the new station!
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#583491
winterflames wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:48 am So when your opponent shows up on your Headquarters and attacks, you ref download Stratagema. Then he plays out the rest of his turn and wins the game another way. You grabbed the wrong tool. Because his deck is designed to get you to use the wrong tool.
I haven't had time to watch the games, but I'm curious- is this actually how he was drawing out the Ref? (Related Q: if so, what on earth is he doing T1 to have that level of firepower?)
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