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By winterflames (Derek Marlar)
 - Delta Quadrant
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1E The Void Regional Participant 2022
#583493
AllenGould wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:48 pm
winterflames wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:48 am So when your opponent shows up on your Headquarters and attacks, you ref download Stratagema. Then he plays out the rest of his turn and wins the game another way. You grabbed the wrong tool. Because his deck is designed to get you to use the wrong tool.
I haven't had time to watch the games, but I'm curious- is this actually how he was drawing out the Ref? (Related Q: if so, what on earth is he doing T1 to have that level of firepower?)
I got it from his tournament report which was excellent and explained the deck very well.
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North American OP Coordinator
By The Ninja Scot (Michael Van Breemen)
 - North American OP Coordinator
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1E World Semi-Finalist 2021
2E World Runner-Up 2021
Tribbles World Champion 2021
Socialite
1E North American Continental Semi-Finalist 2022
2E North American Continental Champion 2022
1E Austrian National Champion 2020
1E Canadian National Runner-Up 2019
2E American National Champion 2021
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2022
2E The Neutral Zone Regional Champion 2022
#583494
AllenGould wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:48 pm
winterflames wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:48 am So when your opponent shows up on your Headquarters and attacks, you ref download Stratagema. Then he plays out the rest of his turn and wins the game another way. You grabbed the wrong tool. Because his deck is designed to get you to use the wrong tool.
I haven't had time to watch the games, but I'm curious- is this actually how he was drawing out the Ref? (Related Q: if so, what on earth is he doing T1 to have that level of firepower?)
Defend Homeworld for Lore to opponent's HQ to attack his personnel. Stratagema was downloaded, leaving no [Ref] cards available. Turn went accordingly without interference.

Michael
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#583510
winterflames wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:55 pm I got it from his tournament report which was excellent and explained the deck very well.
That is a very short yet informative read.

First off - all props to Peter here. He did his homework, and had a solid plan.

Second - one detail that I think has been overlooked is that he only played three games (one Earned Bye for R1). And two of those three were against people playing zero countermeasures. So this deck really only got tested against Julius, and from the review it sounds like he had a fighting chance (and only deke'd the wrong way by mis-reading what the deck was doing).
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
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#583637
Hoss-Drone wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:53 pm
Thoughts?
Dysons Sphere is interactive, when downloading dilemmas from it so i like it. When i was competive, i found the limit of Dysson Sphere (13 dilemmas that was?) quite restrictive, so i build large decks and hide the dilemmas in there, instead of using DS, to have a dilemma for each situation (Disrupt Continuum). Making the Dysons Sphere more like 18 slots and disallow dilemmas in the deck in OTF would make sense to me. Or is that a bad idea?

I do not play OTF tournys anymore, i just shared my thoughts, so feel free to object :)
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E The Void Regional Champion 2022
#583652
Edit: PL’s deck is a nuclear bomb. It's the player count of the game is so low that it wasn't. It's the equivalent of a channel/fireball and is the result of unforseen interactions. It's clever, but bad for everyone. Like a nuclear bomb, it cannot be uninvented, but it should be restricted. The evidence in is front of us, everyone is now thinking about how to specifically defeat one strategy and that is the result of unintended consequences. It's not different than the Quarks/Issue of Patriotism. It's neat, now put it away and never use it again.
Last edited by stressedoutatumc on Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2022
#583653
stressedoutatumc wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:52 pm JK's deck is a nuclear bomb. It's the player count of the game is so low that it wasn't. It's the equivalent of a channel/fireball and is the result of unforseen interactions. It's clever, but bad for everyone. Like a nuclear bomb, it cannot be uninvented, but it should be restricted. The evidence in is front of us, everyone is now thinking about how to specifically defeat one strategy and that is the result of unintended consequences. It's not different than the Quarks/Issue of Patriotism. It's neat, now put it away and never use it again.
I think you mean PL's deck. Assuming I'm tracking your meaning correctly, JK was playing [OS] [Fed] , which while arguably overpowered, is nowhere near the nuclear bomb level of PL's turn 1 cheese.
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E The Void Regional Champion 2022
#583664
Armus wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:57 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:52 pm JK's deck is a nuclear bomb. It's the player count of the game is so low that it wasn't. It's the equivalent of a channel/fireball and is the result of unforseen interactions. It's clever, but bad for everyone. Like a nuclear bomb, it cannot be uninvented, but it should be restricted. The evidence in is front of us, everyone is now thinking about how to specifically defeat one strategy and that is the result of unintended consequences. It's not different than the Quarks/Issue of Patriotism. It's neat, now put it away and never use it again.
I think you mean PL's deck. Assuming I'm tracking your meaning correctly, JK was playing [OS] [Fed] , which while arguably overpowered, is nowhere near the nuclear bomb level of PL's turn 1 cheese.
You are correct, I was referring to the Empok/Maska.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
Contender
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1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2022
#583667
stressedoutatumc wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:52 pmThe evidence in is front of us
Is it? As Allen noted, this deck has only seen three games, worldwide, total, all against unsuspecting opponents.
everyone is now thinking about how to specifically defeat one strategy
This is normal after a new combo debuts. You should bring out the big guns (bans/errata) if everyone thinks about it and everyone still can't find a solution to it after thinking about it.
It's not different than the Quarks/Issue of Patriotism.
I count several important differences with Issue of Patriotism/Defend Homeworld:

1. Peter's deck has a bigger payoff (Turn 1 dump) but it's a lot more fragile (the deck is shattered by a single fairly obvious and common defensive card). If you see it coming, you can reliably kill it. The Patriotism/Defend Homeworld deck was much harder to respond to, even when you saw it coming. Two of the three players who faced it on Worlds Day Two knew exactly what they were facing (because they were Minnesotans who had faced it in test games), but they were still not able to defuse it. The player who did not see it coming got extra-stomped.

(To be clear: there are ways around the Patriotism/DH deck, but they are a lot more complicated and iffy than "put It's Only A Game on the table").

2. The DH/Patriotism deck had quite a few games under its belt. I ran it at two tournaments. Jon Carter ran it at an event early in 2021 and just got absurdly unlucky in his opponents. I think Jon picked it from Sexecutioner or one of the Europlayers. I think MVB ran it at an online event this past May. This doesn't count the deck's run during the Decipher era (apparently it was a Michael Harrington trick from Worlds 2000).

Despite the chance to adapt, the meta couldn't quite seem to wrap its head around the deck. You could counter it by running holograms (as Jon's tournament proved), but "just run holograms" is a much more restrictive & problematic answer than "just run It's Only A Game."

3. The DH/Patriotism deck was arguably enhanced shortly after Worlds with the release of the The Trial Never Ended, which gave it a few more tricks and tools (not that I ever looked into them) and arguably made it more dangerous than ever. Peter's Empok Nor deck hasn't been affected by anything new coming out (and I don't think it will be in the near future).

In the long run, I still think all [Ref] should go away, which means It's Only A Game should (eventually) go away, which means (if the 1E department takes my suggestions and keeps easing out [Ref] -- by no means a sure thing), this deck will, at some point, lose its counter and become a Big Problem.

But, in the short run, I don't think we should panic about it. Let's see how the meta handles it at Nationals and go from there.

ON TOPIC:

I like dilemma enhancers like Shades of Gray and Regula One and even Disrupted Continuum. In fact, by usage history, I think I MIGHT be Shades of Gray's objectively biggest fan. (I haven't counted, but I use a LOT of SoG.)

I like downloaders, too, although I don't think I want to see the Dyson Sphere become as ubiquitous as, say, Battle Bridge Door. So I'd like to see more of it, but not TOO much more. (This was roughly how I feel about apartments in my small town several years ago, but then they built TOO MANY apartments and now I'm unhappy.)

Ironically, downloader dilemmas are both pretty popular AND they are one of the most 2E features of 1E today. Disrupted Continuum is a great card, a real players' card, a classic bit of 1E mischief... and it's pretty obviously just Unexpected Difficulties on a 1E template. I think people are way too fast to shout "DON'T TURN 1E INTO 2E!!!" but leaning too hard into downloaders would actually move 1E substantially in that direction.

The game needs more turns, but shorter turns. Increasing dilemma difficulty should be avoided, because it just adds more turns of the same length (which is actually the opposite of the direction we need to go). But increasing dilemma variety by helping binder fodder dilemmas with boosters and downloaders? That's great.

What does all this have to do with Empok Nor? Honestly not at all clear to me. I don't think having more Empok Nor related dilemmas boosts usage of Dyson Sphere Door -- at least, not without something else to sweeten the pot. Could be wrong.
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583691
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:29 pm
What does all this have to do with Empok Nor? Honestly not at all clear to me. I don't think having more Empok Nor related dilemmas boosts usage of Dyson Sphere Door -- at least, not without something else to sweeten the pot. Could be wrong.
More empok nor dilemmas AND more downloaders (and I'm not talking about making a ton here and I'm certainly talking about making ones deliberately) would encourage the use of DSD, but I doubt DSD would ever be auto include because it IS a seed slot. Either way, more DSD keeps empok nor in check, more downloaders then fight for those 13 spots in the DSD which keeps the number of empok dilemmas in check which creates tension and thus deck building decisions which is the Hallmark of balanced design.

At worst, DSD does reach Qtent levels of ubiquity but that is then solved by creating more DSD variants and cards which you can only use if you don't use DSD which then force more decisions.

I think there's plenty of room to design away some issues but to me the bigger picture is that design moves slow (thats ok) but has also been too preoccupied with themes and not managing the meta environment (not ok).
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By geraldkw
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2022
#583701
Hoss-Drone wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:18 am
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:29 pm
What does all this have to do with Empok Nor? Honestly not at all clear to me. I don't think having more Empok Nor related dilemmas boosts usage of Dyson Sphere Door -- at least, not without something else to sweeten the pot. Could be wrong.
More empok nor dilemmas AND more downloaders (and I'm not talking about making a ton here and I'm certainly talking about making ones deliberately) would encourage the use of DSD, but I doubt DSD would ever be auto include because it IS a seed slot. Either way, more DSD keeps empok nor in check, more downloaders then fight for those 13 spots in the DSD which keeps the number of empok dilemmas in check which creates tension and thus deck building decisions which is the Hallmark of balanced design.

At worst, DSD does reach Qtent levels of ubiquity but that is then solved by creating more DSD variants and cards which you can only use if you don't use DSD which then force more decisions.

I think there's plenty of room to design away some issues but to me the bigger picture is that design moves slow (thats ok) but has also been too preoccupied with themes and not managing the meta environment (not ok).
I feel like both Second Star and Paradise Lost both have some interesting cards affecting the meta.

Second Star
Hello, Computer
We Surrender!
GIVE ME GENESIS!
Captain Kirk
Fleet Admiral Morrow

Paradise Lost
Refugee Guinan
Charter a Space Flight
Operation Retrieve
Clark Terrell

Maybe some of these are answers to questions people aren't asking but I appreciate that these cards potentially affect the meta.
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
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#583708
Hoss-Drone wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:18 am AND more downloaders (and I'm not talking about making a ton here and I'm certainly talking about making ones deliberately) would encourage the use of DSD
Like cards that let player download a set of diffent dilemmas, that are currently not used, because to weak, like Garanian Bolites? So that you can have a few in DSD and a dilemma gives you a choice of 4 different weak dilemmas, that get usefull due to the download ability and the ability to choose depending on the situation?
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Socialite
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#583709
ShipNerd wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:54 pm
Hoss-Drone wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:18 am AND more downloaders (and I'm not talking about making a ton here and I'm certainly talking about making ones deliberately) would encourage the use of DSD
Like cards that let player download a set of diffent dilemmas, that are currently not used, because to weak, like Garanian Bolites? So that you can have a few in DSD and a dilemma gives you a choice of 4 different weak dilemmas, that get usefull due to the download ability and the ability to choose depending on the situation?
Yup. This game is repleat with dilemmas that are so underpowered its embarrassing but would be neat if they were essentially 50% free. Some might say that's making 1e more like 2e....but I see it as 1e growing up but being true to itself.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Community Contributor
#583712
Hoss-Drone wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:18 pm Yup. This game is repleat with dilemmas that are so underpowered its embarrassing but would be neat if they were essentially 50% free. Some might say that's making 1e more like 2e....but I see it as 1e growing up but being true to itself.
To poke the obvious question - you're not suggesting that every 2e dilemma gets used? ;)
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By stressedoutatumc (stressedoutatumc)
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E The Void Regional Champion 2022
#583724
BCSWowbagger wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:29 pm
stressedoutatumc wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:52 pmThe evidence in is front of us
Is it? As Allen noted, this deck has only seen three games, worldwide, total, all against unsuspecting opponents.
everyone is now thinking about how to specifically defeat one strategy
This is normal after a new combo debuts. You should bring out the big guns (bans/errata) if everyone thinks about it and everyone still can't find a solution to it after thinking about it.
It's not different than the Quarks/Issue of Patriotism.
I count several important differences with Issue of Patriotism/Defend Homeworld:

1. Peter's deck has a bigger payoff (Turn 1 dump) but it's a lot more fragile (the deck is shattered by a single fairly obvious and common defensive card). If you see it coming, you can reliably kill it. The Patriotism/Defend Homeworld deck was much harder to respond to, even when you saw it coming. Two of the three players who faced it on Worlds Day Two knew exactly what they were facing (because they were Minnesotans who had faced it in test games), but they were still not able to defuse it. The player who did not see it coming got extra-stomped.

(To be clear: there are ways around the Patriotism/DH deck, but they are a lot more complicated and iffy than "put It's Only A Game on the table").

2. The DH/Patriotism deck had quite a few games under its belt. I ran it at two tournaments. Jon Carter ran it at an event early in 2021 and just got absurdly unlucky in his opponents. I think Jon picked it from Sexecutioner or one of the Europlayers. I think MVB ran it at an online event this past May. This doesn't count the deck's run during the Decipher era (apparently it was a Michael Harrington trick from Worlds 2000).

Despite the chance to adapt, the meta couldn't quite seem to wrap its head around the deck. You could counter it by running holograms (as Jon's tournament proved), but "just run holograms" is a much more restrictive & problematic answer than "just run It's Only A Game."

3. The DH/Patriotism deck was arguably enhanced shortly after Worlds with the release of the The Trial Never Ended, which gave it a few more tricks and tools (not that I ever looked into them) and arguably made it more dangerous than ever. Peter's Empok Nor deck hasn't been affected by anything new coming out (and I don't think it will be in the near future).

In the long run, I still think all [Ref] should go away, which means It's Only A Game should (eventually) go away, which means (if the 1E department takes my suggestions and keeps easing out [Ref] -- by no means a sure thing), this deck will, at some point, lose its counter and become a Big Problem.

But, in the short run, I don't think we should panic about it. Let's see how the meta handles it at Nationals and go from there.

ON TOPIC:

I like dilemma enhancers like Shades of Gray and Regula One and even Disrupted Continuum. In fact, by usage history, I think I MIGHT be Shades of Gray's objectively biggest fan. (I haven't counted, but I use a LOT of SoG.)

I like downloaders, too, although I don't think I want to see the Dyson Sphere become as ubiquitous as, say, Battle Bridge Door. So I'd like to see more of it, but not TOO much more. (This was roughly how I feel about apartments in my small town several years ago, but then they built TOO MANY apartments and now I'm unhappy.)

Ironically, downloader dilemmas are both pretty popular AND they are one of the most 2E features of 1E today. Disrupted Continuum is a great card, a real players' card, a classic bit of 1E mischief... and it's pretty obviously just Unexpected Difficulties on a 1E template. I think people are way too fast to shout "DON'T TURN 1E INTO 2E!!!" but leaning too hard into downloaders would actually move 1E substantially in that direction.

The game needs more turns, but shorter turns. Increasing dilemma difficulty should be avoided, because it just adds more turns of the same length (which is actually the opposite of the direction we need to go). But increasing dilemma variety by helping binder fodder dilemmas with boosters and downloaders? That's great.

What does all this have to do with Empok Nor? Honestly not at all clear to me. I don't think having more Empok Nor related dilemmas boosts usage of Dyson Sphere Door -- at least, not without something else to sweeten the pot. Could be wrong.
I can speak more generally. Both are super cheesy ways to win. Cheesy doesn't mean wrong, illegal, against the rules, or even unclever and or unoriginal. But, clearly, neither Empok/Masaka or Quarks/TIIP were intended pathways to reporting personnel because both break the meta. Yes, for both cards are in place that can sizzle the strategy, but that doesn't make them "right" in the game sense. My analogy of the nuclear bomb is apt for this reason. I acknowledge all the special tech or strategies you can insert to counter it, but the fact that you have 99% of the time going to lose on turn 1 or 2 without it is the sign that it's bad overall for the game. I'd highlight the changes to Defend Homeworld that resulted from the Quarks/TIIP deck.
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By ShipNerd
 - Beta Quadrant
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#583738
AllenGould wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:41 pm
Hoss-Drone wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:18 pm Yup. This game is repleat with dilemmas that are so underpowered its embarrassing but would be neat if they were essentially 50% free. Some might say that's making 1e more like 2e....but I see it as 1e growing up but being true to itself.
To poke the obvious question - you're not suggesting that every 2e dilemma gets used? ;)
Hoss-Drones comment does not sound like, what you consider obvious, to me, at all, not even remotely implied. To me it seems more like you wish to not see more converted or yet unconverted 2e dilemmas. And while not simply openly advocate for your opinion in form of a statement, instead linking your wish into the words of hoss-drone as "obvious", as an rhetoric methode. I rather like behavior where people openly state their opinion, instead of arguing and discussing, because of clarity and fairness.

My understanding of Hoss-Drones post:
The way i interpreted Hoss-Drones actual post is: It means dilemmas get more interactive like in 2e and some people might want to use the general counter-argument: Don´t make 1e 2e-ish. Yet I think using the interactive element in 1e is good, because it was one of the few good inventions in 2e, also interactively downloading of dilemmas, has already become part of 1e with e.g shades of grad cards like this https://www.trekcc.org/1e/index.php?cardID=3750
And Dysons Sphere Door is one of his favourite ways to do so, and give weaker dilemmas a better use this way.

My opinion:
I wish that too, if i understand Hoss-Drone correctly.

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