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By WeAreBack
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
#586614
Anything that makes the Borg slightly easier to work with, especially for new players, is welcome in my book. I can see the text going either way.

But here's another way to think about it -- Dead End was initially released as part of the First Contact expansion, the same set that gave us the Borg as an affiliation. (And where Decipher clearly went with the whole "objectives" angle to avoid having to include a dozen or more missions in the set with Borg affiliation icons for them to attempt.)

My personal feeling is that the designers of First Contact were not thinking to themselves, "Hey, you know what this set really needs, a dilemma that punishes anyone who is not playing Borg by making them attempt a different mission, but which is a minor inconvenience for a Borg player." Lets not forget that, at the time, the Borg actually treated most of the PAQ dilemmas out there as minor inconveniences anyway: Edo Probe, they don't care about point loss, Male's love interest, they're probing with one genderless drone, Firestorm, the drone has integrity of either 5 or 7, Cytherians, that's why we have a Transwarp Network Gateway network. And for everything really tough they can Adapt: Negate Obstruction

Maybe I'm wrong and this card was supposed to stick it to people who hadn't spent a bunch of money on the new set, but I think Jebus' proposal is probably how they expected this card to work.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
2E Cardassia Regional Champion 2022
#586617
WeAreBack wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:10 pm
Maybe I'm wrong and this card was supposed to stick it to people who hadn't spent a bunch of money on the new set, but I think Jebus' proposal is probably how they expected this card to work.
On this point you're factually wrong.

The First Contact rules supplement specifically spelled out that Borg do not attempt missions. As such, Dead Ends ongoing effect would specifically NOT hit Borg. So if they wanted Dead End to hinder Borg they did a really bad job of going about it.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Contender
Community Contributor
1E North American Continental Runner-Up 2022
#586619
I suspect Decipher wanted Borg to ignore Dead End because it was so hard for Borg to deal with at the time. Remember that, as of First Contact, Borg effectively couldn't win without completing four objectives, at least three of which had to be missions. They didn't have Service The Collective to speed up probing, and switching objectives was expensive. Add Dead End to that mix? Ugh.

I wasn't playing competitively at the time, but I imagine that Borg would have been hobbled if they also had to deal with mission blockers like Dead End and Scow. I could be wrong, though.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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Socialite
#586620
Professor Scott wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:02 pm Also a point of note, @JeBuS suggestion would affect most [Bor] but not all, and even then only some of the time.

[1E-TNG] [Bor] don't care that the dilemma is now on the mission, especially if it was the final one.

Also to clarify, I don't think it is [Bor] , but [1E-TNG] [Bor] that is setting the pace, so this may not be a big a speed bump as you'd hoped.
Then it'd be the same as what is necessary with Bij today: seed something to follow it.
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By nobthehobbit (Daniel Pareja)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Moderator
#586622
WeAreBack wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:10 pmMaybe I'm wrong and this card was supposed to stick it to people who hadn't spent a bunch of money on the new set, but I think Jebus' proposal is probably how they expected this card to work.
Decipher wanted to sell packs of the new set. Having a dilemma that slowed down all the old decks but didn't hamper the new toy would do that, since you'd buy the packs both for the dilemma and the new toys.

It's hardly Delta Quadrant Spatial Scission levels of "buy the new set or lose" but they wanted to include incentives to buy their stuff.
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By Professor Scott (Mathew McCalpin)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E The Neutral Zone Regional Participant 2022
#586626
JeBuS wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:44 pm
Professor Scott wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:02 pm Also a point of note, @JeBuS suggestion would affect most [Bor] but not all, and even then only some of the time.

[1E-TNG] [Bor] don't care that the dilemma is now on the mission, especially if it was the final one.

Also to clarify, I don't think it is [Bor] , but [1E-TNG] [Bor] that is setting the pace, so this may not be a big a speed bump as you'd hoped.
Then it'd be the same as what is necessary with Bij today: seed something to follow it.
Of course, I just meant that while some may smell [Bor] coming, not everyone has refined enough senses to distinguish between the different [Bor] deck types.
 
By phaserihardlyknowher (Ben Daeuber)
 - Beta Quadrant
 -  
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#586633
Armus wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:34 pm And this is why I was never an English major. :P
If it makes you feel better, the wording on this card had bothered me for a long time and I wasn't quite sure why. This is probably it.

It also reveals the pitfalls of looking for precise rules in an imprecise language. Contextual clues and common sense means everyone knows what this really means, but I'd also argue that a for a casual (i.e. one who has read the rules but not the case law that is this forum and digest that is the glossary), common sense would dictate this dilemma applies to [Bor] as well. It was news to me that it didn't because I'd never encountered this situation.

The librarian in me now yearns for a complete digest of CC case law.
Last edited by phaserihardlyknowher on Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Director of Operations
By JeBuS (Brian S)
 - Director of Operations
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Socialite
#586634
phaserihardlyknowher wrote:Contextual clues and common sense means everyone knows what this really means, but I'd also argue that a for a casual (i.e. one who has read the rules but not the case law that is the glossary and digest that is this forum), common sense would dictate this dilemma applies to as well
I only went down this road because as an experienced [not "good"] player, this still happened to me. The rulebook seemed to stress that scouting attempts are a kind of attempt. So I was like, "huh, I must have been playing this wrong for a long time. Dead End must apply to the Borg. Why else would they be stressing this terminology?"
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 - Gamma Quadrant
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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1E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
2E Andoria Regional Champion 2022
#586646
I don't buy the argument that non Borg do mission attempts, Borg do scouting attempts that just happen to be at missions. I could argue a mission attempt is something non-borg "do at missions".

When the process for a mission attempt and a scouting attempt are the same they are the same thing. Yes, we can give them different gameplay terms in order to artificially create a difference but basically, when you did that you then have to be precise what you mean every time. I can buy into "attempt ends" applying to both because it didn't specify which.

Bottom line for me is that for consistency, simplicity and friendliness to newer players rules needs to get it smoothed out that

Mission attempt = mission attempt
Scout/scouted = scouting attempt
Attempted (w/o either mission or scout mentioned) = both
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
Community Contributor
#586649
BCSWowbagger wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:32 pm I suspect Decipher wanted Borg to ignore Dead End because it was so hard for Borg to deal with at the time. Remember that, as of First Contact, Borg effectively couldn't win without completing four objectives, at least three of which had to be missions. They didn't have Service The Collective to speed up probing, and switching objectives was expensive. Add Dead End to that mix? Ugh.
There was also a desire to make Borg interact with dilemmas differently, because the game was already starting to see consolidation into "this is the most effective dilemma set" (someone with better memory can correct me, but I seem to remember Diplomacy lockout being the flavor of the year?). So having an affiliation that would see dilemmas extremely differently (Dead End is a cakewalk, but Armus-Sticky Situation was a hard stop for Borg, but everyone else sees the exact opposite) was a net positive. (If I'm remembering correctly, in particular it helped weaken that Dip-lockout because skill sharing meant you were very unlikely to run a Borg deck out of... well anything).

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