That would ignore the part about "the selection may be automatic". If your argument is that the word "choice" means a person needs to choose, then no selection could ever be automatic. But, since the rules stipulate that such a thing is possible, your definition is incorrect.
Professor Scott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 4:50 pm
...
There is NO choice here. They simply die. This doesn't work.
-Fun stuff.
How about this: you are correct that there is no choice. You are wrong that it doesn't work.
If we're talking about Extraordinary Measures, 'choice' isn't anywhere on that card. 'Selection', however, is. And the Tarrelian Plague Ship absolutely selects certain personnel to die. The Away Team.
Not the personnel on that player's outpost.
Not the personnel on that player's second ship 3 missions away.
The selection is made by the dilemma. Per the 'automatic' selection part of the rule you quoted. Neither player made that selection, the 'game' made it directly.
Now, whether you like the outcome, think the card shouldn't do that, etc is certainly a discussion for the CC.
However, by the words on the cards themselves?
No, there is no 'choice'.
But there is a 'selection'. So, semantically, it absolutely should work.
Professor Scott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 4:50 pm
...
There is NO choice here. They simply die. This doesn't work.
-Fun stuff.
How about this: you are correct that there is no choice. You are wrong that it doesn't work.
If we're talking about Extraordinary Measures, 'choice' isn't anywhere on that card. 'Selection', however, is. And the Tarrelian Plague Ship absolutely selects certain personnel to die. The Away Team.
Not the personnel on that player's outpost.
Not the personnel on that player's second ship 3 missions away.
The selection is made by the dilemma. Per the 'automatic' selection part of the rule you quoted. Neither player made that selection, the 'game' made it directly.
Now, whether you like the outcome, think the card shouldn't do that, etc is certainly a discussion for the CC.
However, by the words on the cards themselves?
No, there is no 'choice'.
But there is a 'selection'. So, semantically, it absolutely should work.
The choice emphasis is from the Selection Rules, not the card. If Selection uses the term chosen, and there is no choice, it stands to reason there is no selection!
The dilemma is limited to the away team since it can only effect the away team...not other away teams, crews, etc. Most dilemmas operate this way. Armus - Skin of Evil can only effect the Away as above but it certainly selects a personnel (Random Selection). M-113 Creature also selects a personnel, but unlike most dilemmas, it can select from Here (Opponent's Choice). Notice that Selection and Choice are used interchangeably in these examples. There is neither a selection nor a choice on Plague Ship, save for the Medical to beam over. No choice/No Selection = no EM save.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for EM working as an out, I just don't think it does.
Last edited by Professor Scott on Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Professor Scott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 4:50 pm
...
There is NO choice here. They simply die. This doesn't work.
-Fun stuff.
How about this: you are correct that there is no choice. You are wrong that it doesn't work.
If we're talking about Extraordinary Measures, 'choice' isn't anywhere on that card. 'Selection', however, is. And the Tarrelian Plague Ship absolutely selects certain personnel to die. The Away Team.
Not the personnel on that player's outpost.
Not the personnel on that player's second ship 3 missions away.
The selection is made by the dilemma. Per the 'automatic' selection part of the rule you quoted. Neither player made that selection, the 'game' made it directly.
Now, whether you like the outcome, think the card shouldn't do that, etc is certainly a discussion for the CC.
However, by the words on the cards themselves?
No, there is no 'choice'.
But there is a 'selection'. So, semantically, it absolutely should work.
The choice emphasis is from the Selection Rules, not the card. If Selection uses the term chosen, and there is no choice, it stands to reason there is no selection!
The dilemma is limited to the away team since it can only effect the away team...not other away teams, crews, etc. Most dilemmas operate this way. Armus - Skin of Evil can only effect the Away as above but it certainly selects a personnel (Random Selection). M-113 Creature also selects a personnel, but unlike most dilemmas, it can select from Here (Opponent's Choice). Notice that Selection and Choice are used interchangeably in these examples. There is neither a selection nor a choice on Plague Ship, save for the Medical to beam over. No choice/No Selection = no EM save.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for EM working as an out, I just don't think it does.
You're forgetting the target rules Matthew. They are by definition targeted because their game state is being altered. In order to be targeted they have to chosen, since they are all chosen, its automatic that all are selected.
target
The target of an effect includes every card, every deck (or hand), and every player that is altered by the effect.
A selection or choice implies there are options outside that choice.
Failing to pass "God" requires a selection of a ship to be destroyed (even opponent's if you have none present at the mission).
When the ship is destroyed, you don't select the crew to die, they simply die as per ship destruction rules. They are not discarded, they die which is important. A card played on that destroyed ship is discarded, it is not destroyed.
Since you selected your Away Team and then start a mission/scout attempt, you do not need to further select them unless there is a choice from amongst them (such as the MEDICAL to beam over). There is no further choice/selection for the Away Team, they simply die as per the dilemma. Since the selection was made when you started the attempt, it is well pass the "just selected" timing for EM.
I yield to Coach Kevin as he raises a more general rule that would supersede the specific rules I have cited.
Professor Scott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:40 pm
The choice emphasis is from the Selection Rules, not the card...
...The dilemma is limited to the away team since it can only effect the away team...
-This is correct, and is key in the Order of Things(tm).
The Selection Rules clearly state a selection can be automatic. Which, in this case, means it happens directly without player input. Thanks to the card wording, we have an automatic selection. The choice is made by the card.
Further, the potential pool of affected personnel is generally the entire Away Team. The actual affected personnel are selected/chosen by the dilemma language or by the players, depending. In this case the answer to 'who dies' is baked into the card, so it just happens. Automatically. By its wording. And that same wording stipulates who is affected. Thereby 'choosing' or 'selecting' the afflicted personnel.
Is death an affliction? Eh, sidetrack, sorry.
If there is no selection, or no choice, then you wouldn't know what the consequence was if you fail the dilemma. You have no idea who dies when encountering this dilemma unless the selection is stipulated.
Semantics!
And yes, i am sitting at my desk, stalling to avoid having to start dinner just yet.
"Escape may be played in response to any dilemma that targets your personnel to be killed. This includes dilemmas where there is no choice in the selection such as Subspace Fracture or Climbing the Ranks. Those are still selections."
So we have a two-part query
1) Did this ever make it into the rules documents or was it rendered unnecessary by the errata to Escape?
2) Am I mistaken in thinking that, assuming the part referencing Subspace Fracture was just a restatement of the existing rules and not a part of the temporary ruling, that this would be conclusive evidence that Plague Ship does target?
Ashigaru wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:13 pm
Question for @BCSWowbagger because I *KNEW* I recalled a similar item coming up earlier and I was right. There was a bluetext ruling about a year ago regarding Escape that included the following language. (Source: viewtopic.php?f=310&t=48086&p=605286&hi ... pe#p605286)
I wondered whether anyone other than me was thinking about that ruling while reading this thread! That was certainly what came to my mind!
As usual, I wasn't entirely sure what things the Rules Committee had actually done vs. the things we had only discussed, so I hesitated to say anything in this thread.
Looking now at the R.C. archives, I can see that the Rules Committee agreed in principle that "select" is a synonym for "target." I can see that we intended to convey that -- with economical, newbie-friendly wording -- in our rewrite of the selection rule.
But we were also trying to convey several other things at the same time, and "targeted = selected" may have been lost in the shuffle, since there still seems to be confusion about it today. (Or is there? It seems as though both Coach Kev and Keiimaster correctly recognized that selected = targeted and so considered the definition of "target" conclusive.)
As an added bonus, you can't easily see the exact change we made to the selections rule that month, because (as I just discovered), the RRD that month omitted the selection rule change by accident (by printing the species change twice instead). If you are a True Rules Nerd, I think this was the wording that made it into the Rulebook:
Rulebook 12.1 wrote:Random Selection Some cards require one or more cards to be chosen. The selection may be automatic, one player may choose, or it may be random. If the card (or rule) does not specify, the player who played or encountered the card selects. For example, on Odo's Cousin, you choose which SCIENCE to stop. The selecting player may see the cards.
When gametext specifies that a card is to be chosen byMake random selections by any mutually agreeable means; or shuffle together all eligible cards, hold them so the faces of the cards cannot be seen, and let your opponent draw a card, at random, from this group.
There are special rules for tied selections.
NEW SIDEBAR: Zero-Target Selections 12.1.0.1
When a card is removed from a selection before it is made, it might leave the selection with no valid targets. Resolve the card normally. For example, if you play Alien Groupie on an Away Team that includes Elim Garak, he may use his special skill to avoid the random selection. If he is the only male in the Away Team, that leaves no valid targets of Alien Groupie, which discards without effect. (It is still considered a random selection.) See reseeding after escapes.
Glossary - selections wrote:
Many dilemmas and other cards require one or more cards to be selected from a crew or Away Team, from other cards in play, or from your hand. Selections may be random, opponent's choice, or owner's choice. See Rulebook 12.1: Random Selection and (for showing your cards during an "opponent's choice" selection)Rulebook 12.12: Showing Your Cards.
If a selection method is not specified by the card or by a rule, it is the choice of the player who played the card or who encountered the dilemma or Q-icon card. For example, when you play Brain Drain ("Removes all skills and CUNNING from any one personnel..."), you choose the personnel. When you encounter the Tarellian Plague Ship [link to card] dilemma (which kills your crew "unless MEDICAL 'beams over' (discarded) to Tarellians)," you select which MEDICAL to discard. SeeRulebook 6.3.4: Dual-Personnel Cards.
When a personnel is removed from a selection before it is made, it might leave the selection with no valid targets. Resolve the card normally. For example, Elim Garak may avoid random selections. If Elim Garak, alone, encounters Armus - Skin of Evil (which kills one randomly selected personnel), he can avoid the random selection. Since there are no valid targets for the selection, no one dies. (It is still considered a random selection.) Since the dilemma has no other effects, and the Away Team did not fail any conditions (and the random selection itself is not a "to get past" condition for this dilemma), Armus - Skin of Evil is removed and Elim Garak's mission attempt continues. See Rulebook 7.2.2.0.36.0.1: Dilemma TargetsReseed After Escapes.
The bottom line is, this should work, and the R.C. thinks it works, but there remains some question in my mind whether the rules should be tweaked to make it clearer that it works.
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I think the issue can come up if you've played almost any other game in addition to Trek 1E, (Well, Yugioh is it's own linguistic nightmare), but I can CERTAINLY understand thinking board wipes like that didn't target anyone (Hexproof wouldn't protect you from Wrath of God in M:TG, and Elusive doesn't protect you from Flamestrike in Hearthstone). It's the result of target having a very different meaning in 1E than other games (or, indeed, common usage)
Ashigaru wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 12:31 am
...but I can CERTAINLY understand thinking board wipes like that didn't target anyone...
-I think if it were an actual board wipe, it would be harder to logically parse the language of the situation and the rule to come to the correct conclusion. The fact that it *isn't* a board wipe but only applies to certain personnel at a certain location makes it clear that a selection/choice/targeting has occurred.
Kaiser wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 12:36 am
The easiest way to deal with the Inhibitor is still to land a ship.
Blue Alert can be seeded (or grab Establish Landing Protocols with RRD, HF, etc.) , ships with no staffing requirements can be downloaded with Spacedoor or Call for Reinforcements or Hidden Fighter.
In addition to the methods mentioned above, you can also do fun stuff like special downloading an Assassin who dls Assassination Plot to murder Mila before the Plague Ship resolves (if your opponent brings out only Mila; if you run this combo, you should always get a second female, too).
100% agree. I prefer to "let the bomb explode" then just land the ship. My buddy likes to download with Thelev Impersonator since you can get him with Preserver Obelisk. It's a little tougher when you get put on the "Spot", which is a trick I learned from your youtube channel.
Lobo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 17, 2024 9:25 am
-Are there any cards (like a Ref card maybe) that restrict downloads/download chains? Maybe one of those works here as well?
I thought i read a card that restricted downloads when i was reading through stuff/playing catch-up, but i can't remember what it was right now.
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