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By WeAreBack
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#556164
Before I build a deck with Transporter Mixup at the heart, I want to double check that my moves don't violate any of the prohibitions against moves that can't be made voluntarily.

The question: does a the "beam up" involved in the transporter mix-up have to be valid when it begins, or does it only need to be valid when it ends? My views is that only the end-result matters.

Imagine you are beaming up Vic Fontaine from a planet with Holo-Projectors to a ship with no holodeck, but you "mixup" so that the non-holographic Fontaine completes the beam up.

Or that you have a Emblem of the Alliance in play, a [Car] [KCA] ship in orbit, [Fed] Worf is beaming up but is being mixed up so that Regent Worf completes the beam up.

I think this is OK, as there is never any invalid move. Indeed, the only way to interfere with Transporter Mixup is computer crash. My understanding is that the beam up would be aborted, and Transporter Mixup would not discard.
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By Takket
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
1E Qo'noS Regional Participant 2021
#556171
WeAreBack wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:04 pm Before I build a deck with Transporter Mixup at the heart, I want to double check that my moves don't violate any of the prohibitions against moves that can't be made voluntarily.

The question: does a the "beam up" involved in the transporter mix-up have to be valid when it begins, or does it only need to be valid when it ends? My views is that only the end-result matters.

Imagine you are beaming up Vic Fontaine from a planet with Holo-Projectors to a ship with no holodeck, but you "mixup" so that the non-holographic Fontaine completes the beam up.

Or that you have a Emblem of the Alliance in play, a [Car] [KCA] ship in orbit, [Fed] Worf is beaming up but is being mixed up so that Regent Worf completes the beam up.

I think this is OK, as there is never any invalid move. Indeed, the only way to interfere with Transporter Mixup is computer crash. My understanding is that the beam up would be aborted, and Transporter Mixup would not discard.
You don't have anyone in a house arrest scenario or a Hologram where they can't exist in either of these scenarios, so i see no reason why this would not work.
WeAreBack wrote:On a related note - Transporter mixup requires beaming up "from a planet." Can we safely assume that this includes beaming up from a landed ship or a facility that is built or seeded "on" a planet.

Again, I'm thinking of how to beam up my Vic Fontiane to replace with Fontaine. Messing around with holo-projectors is annoying.
Glossary:
on planet

Cards which are in a planet facility or aboard a ship landed on a planet are also "on planet," even though they are not on the planet's surface.
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Architect
Community Contributor
#556230
WeAreBack wrote:The question: does a the "beam up" involved in the transporter mix-up have to be valid when it begins, or does it only need to be valid when it ends? My views is that only the end-result matters.
My opinion only, not an official ruling.

The action has to be valid when it begins, or you never reach the point where you can do the Transporter Mixup. This makes both TrekSense and RuleSense.

An action has three stages: (1) initiation, (2) responses, and (3) resolution. (You might also see these stages as proposal, modification, and execution.) Transporter Mixup is a response to a beaming action (since it modifies a transport in progress), so Transporter Mixup can only act on a transport that has already finished the initiation step.

But initiation/proposal has several substeps as well (this list is from the Glossary, but it is not currently known whether it is complete):

(1a) revealing/playing cards,
(1b) declaring their functions,
(1c) checking conditions/legality,
(1d) choosing targets,
(1e) paying costs

An action becomes "committed" (that is, you can't back out of it anymore, and any costs paid will remain lost) at the "choosing targets" step. But an invalid transport fizzles at the "checking legality" stage -- before it becomes "committed." The transport is cancelled (with no costs paid, as if it never happened) and there's no transport for Transporter Mixup to respond to.

This makes sense in-universe. Regency One's transporter chief isn't going to start to beam up [Fed] Worf and hope that a freak ion storm causes a bizarre switcheroo with Worf's [MQ] counterpart. He's going to politely tell [Fed] Worf that, no, he can't beam up, because he's an Enemy of the Alliance and is to be terminated with extreme prejudice.
way to interfere with Transporter Mixup is computer crash. My understanding is that the beam up would be aborted, and Transporter Mixup would not discard.
This is correct, but only because of the extremely hinky way [HA] cards work in the timing rules. (Computer Crash is "retroactive" to the start of the action, causing the transport it's responding to to retroactively fail at the "checking legality" step. I have tried to find ways of simplifying this very confusing piece of the rules, but it seems there may be other cards that depend on it.)

A Barclay's Transporter Phobia is not subject to hinky [HA] timing and will actually spoil the Transporter Mixup: the transport will not be cancelled, anyone else involved in the transport (if any) will complete the Mixup, but the target of the Phobia is knocked out of the proverbial matter stream and (since the transport was validly initiated), costs are still paid and the Transporter Mixup will still discard.
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By WeAreBack
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#556277
I agree with you on the Phobia. The mixup would have no valid targets if everyone who was beaming refused to go. Obviously everyone else beaming completes the actions as described.

It's kinda crazy there's no official ruling on this given that transporter mixup is not exactly a new card and given that (unless you are running the card in reverse with Get Back) the [MQ] side is pretty much always more permissive for affiliation mixing -- [Fed] [TE] mixing with [SF] [TE] in addition to [KCA].
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First Edition Rules Master
By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
 -  
Architect
Community Contributor
#556281
Well, Transporter Mixup is not a very heavily used card, and official rulings generally only happen if the "lower courts" (tournament judges) are unable to resolve the question.

This is a weird question -- one I've never heard before!
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
 -  
Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#556288
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:26 pm Well, Transporter Mixup is not a very heavily used UNDERRATED card, and official rulings generally only happen if the "lower courts" (tournament judges) are unable to resolve the question.

This is a weird question -- one I've never heard before!
FTFY.

Transporter Mixup is a total player's card if you use it right. I'm shocked more people haven't unlocked its potential.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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Architect
Community Contributor
#556299
Armus wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:07 pm
BCSWowbagger wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:26 pm Well, Transporter Mixup is not a very heavily used UNDERRATED card, and official rulings generally only happen if the "lower courts" (tournament judges) are unable to resolve the question.

This is a weird question -- one I've never heard before!
FTFY.

Transporter Mixup is a total player's card if you use it right. I'm shocked more people haven't unlocked its potential.
I buy this.
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By PantsOfTheTalShiar (Jason Tang)
 - Delta Quadrant
 -  
Contender
1E Andoria Regional Champion 2021
#556377
I'm not an official rules guy, but my instinct is to agree with BCS. Transporter Mixup modifies the already initiated action of beaming, so that action must be legally initiated first.

I'm also pretty sure that Fontaine is easier than you think, since holograms can exist deactivated on ANY ship or facility, not just ones with Holodecks. Vic Fontaine can beam up to any compatible ship or facility.
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By WeAreBack
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#559566
Can we fix most of these problems with Memory Wipe on the ship that is beaming the people who are being targeted for replacement?

That is, as long as everyone being beamed up from the planet is compatible with each other, they wouldn't need to be compatible with the ship or crew either before beaming or after beaming when the Transporter Mixup has been used, since everyone on the ship will become non-aligned after they beam up.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

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