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By WeAreBack
 - Alpha Quadrant
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#556282
The rules and glossary are good for combat with [Self] cards. Do uncontrolled cards Empok Nor, Earth Outpost downloaded via a card like Test for Weakness, and Starship Defiant work differently or the same?

That is, it would be counterintuitive if these get [Tac] cards from my opponent's deck in the battle when [Self] cards don't.

I can see also rule that says that these cards just sit there and don't shoot back because there's literally "nobody home" and it's certainly implied that even the computers may be damaged on the two uncontrolled cards that have weapons at all. (These are Starship Defiant and uncontrolled Empok Nor which has "0" weapons, and so could presumably be target of some future card to make them greater than "0"; as it is Defense system upgrade only targets "your facility" and other cards mention "ship.")

Additionally, it would be very odd if the Defiant was able to shoot at multiple attacking ship like a [Self] card when it was uncontrolled but then lost that ability when commandeered. It would also be odd to let my opponent pick the targets given that this option was apparently rejected for [Self] cards.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E Borg Region Regional Participant 2021
#556289
"Uncontrolled" means - like the word says - nobody controlls it. Everybody can fire upon it (if allowed). The attacker may use his Tactic cards. The defender - the uncontrolled force - must use default damage. But it is handeled like a normal attack.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#556290
Enabran wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:08 pm "Uncontrolled" means - like the word says - nobody controlls it. Everybody can fire upon it (if allowed). The attacker may use his Tactic cards. The defender - the uncontrolled force - must use default damage. But it is handeled like a normal attack.
I think if the uncontrolled card somehow were to damage the attacker and the attacker's opponent was running a BBSD, there would be default tactic damage ( [Flip] [Flip] ), but otherwise I agree with you.

I'm not sure if that can actually occur though.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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#556296
Armus wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:11 pm I think if the uncontrolled card somehow were to damage the attacker and the attacker's opponent was running a BBSD, there would be default tactic damage ( [Flip] [Flip] ), but otherwise I agree with you.
:thumbsup:

If you have a BBSD, *all* your opponent's damage is tactics, regardless of how they managed it.
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By WeAreBack
 - Alpha Quadrant
 -  
#556369
Enabran wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:08 pm The defender - the uncontrolled force - must use default damage. But it is handeled like a normal attack.
Right, I agree that the damage inflicted by an uncontrolled card would be default damage from my opponent's tactic side deck (if she or he has one).

But (1) does the uncontrolled card return fire at all, (2) how are targets selected, (3) does my opponent get to play a tactic during the battle?

Because I'm not going to try to blow up Starship Defiant with a bunch of shuttlepods if it gets to fire its weapons at all of them like a [Self] card and gets to play tactics.
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By Armus (Brian Sykes)
 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Goateed
Community Contributor
1E American National Second Runner-Up 2020
#556370
WeAreBack wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:26 pm
Enabran wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:08 pm The defender - the uncontrolled force - must use default damage. But it is handeled like a normal attack.
Right, I agree that the damage inflicted by an uncontrolled card would be default damage from my opponent's tactic side deck (if she or he has one).

But (1) does the uncontrolled card return fire at all, (2) how are targets selected, (3) does my opponent get to play a tactic during the battle?

Because I'm not going to try to blow up Starship Defiant with a bunch of shuttlepods if it gets to fire its weapons at all of them like a [Self] card and gets to play tactics.
Your opponent definitely does NOT get to draw and play tactics during the battle... I'm pretty sure that's covered in the glossary.
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 - The Center of the Galaxy
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Continuing Committee Member - Retired
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#556371
Weirdly, I'm not finding anything to cover shooting at an Empok Nor (which is old enough I figured there'd be a ruling for).

Notably, an uncontrolled card is *not* a self-controlled card, so the [Self] rules don't apply at all. I'm leaning towards "an uncontrolled card doesn't shoot back", because there's no staffing on board and there's no rules saying it does anything else.
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By BCSWowbagger (James Heaney)
 - First Edition Rules Master
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1E World Champion 2021
Architect
Community Contributor
#556384
AllenGould wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:01 pm I'm leaning towards "an uncontrolled card doesn't shoot back", because there's... no rules saying it does anything else.
Not blue but I agree with this. :thumbsup:
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By WeAreBack
 - Alpha Quadrant
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#556385
Right. The ordinary rules for battle would apply:
If the player attacked wishes to return fire during this battle, he must now identify which of his or her ships and/or facilities will be firing, and which attacking ship or facility they will target. Any of that player's ships and facilities at that location may return fire, even if they were not targeted in the attack, as long as the ship or facility has WEAPONS and at least one personnel of matching affiliation aboard. This declaration, or a declaration that the attacked player will not return fire, formally initiates the battle
The uncontrolled card cannot identify a target, nor is any matching affiliation personnel aboard, so it should not be able to return fire at all.
Last edited by WeAreBack on Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E Borg Region Regional Participant 2021
#556391
Rules say:

1. Announce your attack, then identify which of your ships and/or facilities will be firing and which enemy ship or facility they are targeting.... After the battle has been initiated and until a winner is determined, the opposing force is considered the "opponent" of your cards in the battle, even if that force is self-controlled or under your control...

2. If your opponent wishes to return fire during this battle,... (at this point I do not know where exactly is the opponent and can choose) BUT
Each of your opponent's ships and facilities that returns fire must also have WEAPONS>0, be "unstopped," undocked, uncloaked, and unphased, and have a personnel of matching affiliation aboard (but no leader is required).

Empok Nor has 0 Weapons, so cannot fire back. Starship Defiant has no matching personnel aboard and therefore cannot fire back. And I am pretty sure no one of the both above named forces (Intrepid or Empok Nor) is allowed to use the tactic cards from my sidedeck or the opponents side deck. Not for the defend or as damage marker should the Defender (Intrepid or Empok Nor) be able in some crazy way to make damage on my attacking ship.
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#556412
Enabran wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:31 am And I am pretty sure no one of the both above named forces (Intrepid or Empok Nor) is allowed to use the tactic cards from my sidedeck or the opponents side deck. Not for the defend or as damage marker should the Defender (Intrepid or Empok Nor) be able in some crazy way to make damage on my attacking ship.
I think you're half right.

The tactics are per *player*, and an uncontrolled ship doesn't belong to a player, so no-one would be drawing tactics for it. ([Self] cards specifically say they don't, but I think it's reasonable to extend the logic here.)

Damage markers are different:
glossary: damage wrote:When you are using a Battle Bridge side deck, any damage to your opponent's ships or facilities, whether from a hit in battle, dilemmas, or other causes, is indicated by damage markers, which are Tactic cards from your side deck.
So, if that uncontrolled card somehow manages to damage you, you'll take damage based on the presence/absence of the opponent's BBSD. If they have one, you'll take tactics; otherwise you take rotation.

Now, how you manage to get damaged by an uncontrolled card is left as an exercise for the player. :D
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By Enabran
 - Beta Quadrant
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1E Borg Region Regional Participant 2021
#556427
@ Allen
Yeah, but the rules say... the opposing force is considered the "opponent"... so in that case the opponent is the uncontrolled ship and therefore he has no bbsd and must use default damage, which is, you have to flip your ship 180°
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#556432
Enabran wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:56 pm @ Allen
Yeah, but the rules say... the opposing force is considered the "opponent"... so in that case the opponent is the uncontrolled ship and therefore he has no bbsd and must use default damage, which is, you have to flip your ship 180°
You're reading the battle section. It's in the damage section.

You *never* mix rotation and tactic damage.

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